To question my long held beliefs against capital punishment after what happened to Alesha MacPhail

[Noteventhebirdsareupyet]

Hi all,

I have recently been really shaken by the Alesha MacPhailcase and possibly because I now have a tiny daughter of my own, I am feeling really affected by what has happened.

I have always had reasonably strong views against capital punishment and have often argued that:

No one has the right to take the life of another.

When capital punishment is lawful, mistakes are made and innocent people get killed.

We are supposedly a civilised society.

Often offenders were victims first and therefore need empathy and have been failed by the system.....

However I am now shocked to find myself thinking that if a person can do the things that Aaron Campbell has done to a tiny, innocent girl and show absolutely no remorse, then perhaps instead of spending hundreds of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money keeping him incarcerated and then putting communities at risk upon his release, maybe we as a society should say that this person is intrinsically evil and has no place among us.

I honestly never imagined myself feeling like this and maybe it is because I am now a mother that I do. Surely people like him don't deserve a second chance and should be killed before they ruin more lives.

Am I being unreasonable to feel like this? Has anyone else had a turning point like me? I feel that my family and friends would be a bit shocked to hear me say "let's kill dangerous criminals" but this incident has had a profound effect on my outlook and I feel like I can't voice my opinions out loud.

Foxfox, there have been several cases where someone has been 'assessed', found to be no longer much of a risk, and released - only to murder or rape again.

Dangerous criminals/psychopaths can be extremely clever and know exactly how to fool whoever is supposed to be assessing them. There is still no infallible method for seeing into every dark corner of someone else's mind.

• I find this case very horrific reading. Feel for the poor family. I think in these cases there should be life in prison and no parole whatsoever. Also only the basics not x box and luxuries*

What crimes would occasion parole and/or the allowance of the X-box ( should such things be allowed in prison anyway). Abduction, rape and murder of adult women? Men ? It would help explain why you think some should be held in different conditions.

No parole, not parole.

the opportunity to be seen as martyrs of the state

Timothy McVeigh has been largely forgotten about and if he was still alive, would probably have correspondences with his militia buddies and his jail movements would be occasionally reported on, at the very least. They did the right thing to execute him.

The thought of that poor child moved me to tears. How on earth will her family ever be able to come to terms with it? Her mother said she would have committed suicide if it hadnt have been for her 4 year old daughter.

I can still remember my father talking about Ruth Ellis and Derek Bentley being hanged which upset him deeply. So while I totally understand OP 's POV I am reluctant to reintroduce this.

Robert Thomson and John Venables should never have had there identity hidden, they should have lived with the consequences of what they had done

No, because their lives would have been at serious risk. James Bulger's mother opposed the application by her ex and his brother for the ban on John Venables's new identity being revealed to be lifted, for this reason. She's only ever asked for them to face time in an adult prison.

I certainly understand why you would feel this way, OP, what that monster did to that little girl was horrific, but two wrongs don't make a right. Plus, there will always be the danger of miscarriages of justice taking place and we can't take that risk.

When I read about crimes like that one, my gut instinct is that the criminal should be put down in the same way as I would expect a dog that mauled someone to be put down.

My logical brain knows it isn't so simple and the justice system isn't perfect enough to ensure no one is falsely convicted.

@Inliverpool1 there were no traces of drugs in his system, including cannabis. He admits to having drank 1.5 bottles of wine, I would take that to mean Buckfast, but states he was not under the effect of it at the time. He stated he was an infrequent cannabis smoker

Also he does not have fetal alcohol syndrome ffs! Read the statement from the judge

I have always been against the death penalty, but I will admit that this case did make me 'wobble' my stance slightly. I haven't changed my mind, but did come close.

I do think that Life should mean life though, with no possibility of parole. And that it should be a hard life - basic needs met like bed, clothing, calorie controlled food (maybe military ration style?), exercise and basic entertainment like books, paper, pencils. Enough to stay alive but not enough to enjoy it.

Whilst I agree with and see the need for rehabilitation of other, lesser, offenders I don't see the need for the rehab of someone with a life sentence.

Really OP? You were unaware that horrific murders took place before this little girl died?

The interesting thing about the death penalty in countries that have it, is who it gets given too - and who it doesnt. Have a look at our own history.

When someone does something truly horrific there are always those who try to find some ‘reason’ for it. He was fully assessed. He was not diagnosed as being on the autistic spectrum, he was not diagnosed with any mental health disorders, he was not identified as suffering from FAS. It was not (before anyone suggests it) psychosis brought on by cannabis use.

But Kaltteeina, something was wrong because normal socialised people don't do that sort of thing. He must have been very messed up.

Apparently it was echo falls wine not that it makes a difference what he had drunk

‘normal socialised people don't do that sort of thing’

They do. All the time. People beat their own babies to death over a period of months, or watch while their boyfriends do. People rape and murder. They drive over someone to steal a car.

Timothy McVeigh has been largely forgotten about and if he was still alive, would probably have correspondences with his militia buddies and his jail movements would be occasionally reported on, at the very least. They did the right thing to execute him.

Even if your guess is correct, McVeigh's crimes took place a while before the widespread internet age. The recent NZ attack is completely different in that respect and we're presumably all aware of the significance of online radicalisation and communities in his case. The 90s was a different planet.

McVeigh was also not a jihadist with a belief that if he died in pursuit of his goals, he'd go to heaven to be received by dozens of virgins, whereas a lot of other terrorists are. Martyrdom is very much what they want. In respect of jihadists specifically, something like the fate of Bilal Abdullah is going to be much less attractive to them than that of McVeigh. Bilal Abdullah was aiming to die that day. Terrorists often are.

something was wrong because normal socialised people don't do that sort of thing. He must have been very messed up.

Do you realise how much examination and evaluation he will have undergone? There were no disorders although he ticked off a lot of pointers on the psychopathy checklist and his upbringing, although “less than ideal” was not a mitigating factor. Why do you think you know more than the judge and experts?

Ledehe - I love how we believe the psychopaths when they tell us how much weed they’ve smoked and alcohol they’ve consumed and their mental state .... utterly illogical but it’ll all come out in the wash. His symptoms seem very likely FAS in my opinion, I’ve worked with children suffering.

The behaviours you mention are not norms and not socialised. Patently.

YouBumder - it’s not a case of knowing more than the judge, it’s a case of what everyone knows now vs what everyone who needs to know will know under the different clinical conditions of him being found guilty and sentenced, his mindset will shift from getting away with it to surviving the current environment.

normal

@Inliverpool1 I take it you sat in court for the 9 days and listened to the whole of the evidence then? No because if you had you would be utterly broken by being there and hearing of the 117 separate injuries in detail and the photographs of what he did to a 6 year old.

I know of no one with fetal alcohol syndrome that has committed a crime as heinous as this. If you do then please enlighten us all.

He is quite a handsome looking lad and does not have any of the facial attributes of FAS.

Sick of armchair psychologists sitting thinking they know more than the ACTUAL medical/mental health professionals that has worked with him.

And if I've mislabled you and you are a genuine psychologist then forgive me, but maybe offer your skills to the people who will be haunted by this case every day for the rest of their lives

Ledehe - obviously I didn’t listen to the entire trial, but you’re kinda making my point for me. This is the beginning of the process of diagnosis far from the end. To just label anyone evil is far too simplistic and we learn nothing from that.

I shall always be against the death penalty

And as for life meaning life I don’t believe this should be the case I do believe in rehabilitation but not for everyone

And if everyone who was given a life sentence to serve life is ridiculous how do you think prisons would manage so many prisoners knowing they will never ever have a chance to be free it’s unmanageable

Somebody who does what he did is evil we have nothing to learn from what he did