To refuse to support DD in having hobbies anymore?

[HelenLaBloodyAnnoyed]

DD is 11 and is very sociable and outgoing. Since the age of 5 she's tried out about every extra curricular activity going. She's on the school team for every sport and loves competing in pretty much everything she can. She's also massively into drama and dance and would love to study drama at Uni.

Over the years, I've spent thousands of pounds and countless hours supporting her in all of her activities but now I'm considering refusing to do so any longer. The issue is her father - from whom I have been separated for many many years - does not support her in any activities. DD only sees him fortnightly but this has still managed to disrupt so many things for her.

For example, she took tap classes and after a year was picked to perform a solo in the dance schools annual show. She was beyond excited and was talking about it for weeks. When the show drew closer, her father said he didn't agree to her taking part (it fell on his weekend with her, I offered to swap/take and return her/him to come and watch) and she wouldn't tell him how much it meant to her, she missed it and then once she was home she was so upset - she then wouldn't return to the dance school as she thought she'd let the teacher down, and because she didn't see the point of improving if she could never perform.

Similar incidents have happened with several other activities; she'll take classes and adore them, get really good, be asked to perform or compete, be desperate to do so but then if it requires even minimal commitment on her weekrnd with her father, he'll say no and she won't stand up for herself. I have fought her corner with him for years but he won't back down, despite knowing how upset she gets, and she won't tell him she is desperate to take part.

Tonight I had to drag her 3 younger siblings to collect her from drama class at 7.45pm, they're all tired and she comes out absolutely buzzing because she's been picked for a main part in their performance. That's great, but for the last month they'll have rehearsals on Saturday mornings - which her father won't let her attend. I just feel like it's deja vu and there's no point putting me and her siblings through taxiing her around, not to mention paying out for the activities when they can never progress so she ultimately gives them up.

I've tried empowering her to speak up to him but she absolutely refuses. WIBU to say there's no point taking anything else up, or does that just make me as bad as him?

[Meandwinealone]

I guess the main problem is, she loves her father as 11 year olds do. She will do anything for his love.

She’s not emotionally capable of doing anything else.

You just need to keep being there, keep going on with this frustrating cycle of support. And one day, she might realise who supports her and who doesn’t

It’s all you can do. You don’t have much other choice in reality.

Just make sure her memories of you are of you always being supportive and facilitating

[Meandwinealone]

And anyone who says why don’t you stop this bullying is living in cloud cuckoo land. It’s not your fault.
Do the best you can on your side of things

[pissedonatrain]

This really is horrible abuse. This young girl is being let down and disappointed by you both and is being taught she'll never get to finish or shine at anything.

At 11, she shouldn't be having this much fear and anxiety in her life.

It's 90% your twat ex doing but you are colluding with it, so she has no one standing up for her. She's too young and afraid to do it.

Stop asking this abusive arses permission and just take her to the solo or event or whatever. It's already written that she be allowed to go to these activities. Take her and drop her off later. Let the ass take you back to court.

The answer isn't catering to this abusive cunt by shutting down your daughter with no activities because something just might fall on his day. The answer is standing up to this abusive jackass.

If you're talking about adult issues with your kids, stop it. They don't need the burden. You handle it for them like a parent should.

Notice these fuckwits are never afraid to screw you over with visitation or money. They aren't worried about being taken back to court, but you're afraid to take her to an event even though it is in the court documents. Just stop it as it is clear from your posts, the damage already being done to her.

[HelenLaBloodyAnnoyed]

The court don't always see the truth. I stopped contact when she was 7 because she told me he had got so drunk he had passed out and she had walked to her grandparents house alone at night without him or his girlfriend noticing. They said he was entitled to down time and the CAFCASS officer actually made DD feel as though she had been told off for leaving the house.

[DishingOutDone]

Someone upthread mentioned counselling, I'd say more like therapy to build her confidence - this could get worse, as she goes into her teens she will be pulled every which way by him; as you rightly say he is gaslighting her and manipulating. Is there anyone in RL you can get some support from? Grandparents perhaps? Teachers? Maybe the principal at the dance school? My DD did drama etc for years and had to give it up due to ill health but the Principal would always discuss concerns with her and "guide" her to the right decision.

[Chloemol]

I think you just need to tell him this is what she is doing, it involves your weekend but as you know the court order says you have to accommodate her wish to continue her activities. If he is not going to take her you will, and drop her off afterwards. If he wants the time making up then discuss that, although I am of the opinion you don’t need to make it up as the court order says he should be accommodating her activities. If he kicks off take it back to court and explain as you have here and that your daughter won’t tell her father how she really feels

[TheFormidableMrsC]

I absolutely agree with Chloemol. You can also request a different Cafcass officer. It's so often the only language these arseholes understand. I feel so bad for you both, so difficult.

[littletortoise]

OP in the nicest way possible - she’s eleven. She can’t stand up to her father and say ‘I want to do this’ because of the situation she’s in and the power he holds over her — in her eyes, probably, if she goes against his words she’s lost his love IYSWIM, and if she’s already ‘lost’ him through divorce or whatever then (even if he is the biggest arsehole going) she won’t want to risk doing it again and losing that sense of approval. I only say that because I was in the EXACT same position when I was her age and my mother wanted me to stand up to my father in the same way and honestly, at that age I needed her to do it for me but I think because she hated him entirely and could easily slag him off she thought I would too.

Sorry if this is just rehashing things already said - but good luck and I wish you both the best, feel for you as he sounds like a dripping cock end!

[Orangecookie]

She’s only 11. She needs you to stand up for her.

Just tell him she’s busy and needs to be picked up later on saturdays or he can go along if he wants, and if he wants to cause a fuss he can go to court.

[puppy23]

I don't think many of you are listening to OP - she keeps trying to stand up for her DD. This isn't either of their faults but his.

[ReanimatedSGB]

Start undermining her father. Start teaching her that he's an abusive shit, in age appropriate ways - encourage her to feel a mixture of pity and contempt for him. She needs to get to the point where he doesn't matter to her and his wishes and opinions are irrelevant. If a teacher or a classmate was bullying and manipulating her, you would teach her to regard this person as both unpleasant and unimportant, wouldn't you?
He's a shit, and a rotten father, and the sooner she can see this and cut contact with him, the better. There is no benefit for her in spending time with him, so help her to understand this and reject him.

[Oliversmumsarmy]

I think your dd needs therapy and councilling and maybe the idea that she is old enough now to see her father on her own terms.

Even if atm she feels obligated to.

I presume she will be going to secondary school in September (or started last September)..

Maybe float the idea that now she is older she doesn’t have to see him if she doesn’t want to.

She is in an abusive relationship and too young to help herself.

If this was an adult woman we were talking about the advice would be therapy and doing the Freedom programme.

Your poor dd probably knows there is nothing she can do and no amount of pleading would do any good.


Unfortunately she isn’t alone on having a father who won’t support her ECAs

[Tavannach]

If it goes back to CAFCASS can you ask the drama teacher to write a report? This would presumably say that your DD is talented and this is a great opportunity for her.
If you talk through the report with your DD she might begin to understand that sometimes she's going to have to put herself before her father's opinions.
I agree that this is a battle you're going to have to fight for her, but she needs to learn to say "no". Perhaps therapy would help.

[Planeticket]

Hmm... This is a difficult situation but I kind of see it differently. I think if you try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, that all of you are right. You are right because these group hobbies require a high/regimented level of commitment. Your daughter is right because she probably misses her dad as well and even though it might seem like they don't get up to much, she might actually enjoy just relaxing with her dad and cousins. Her father could also be right because he misses his daughter and wants to spend that time with her, talking to her rather than waiting around for her to finish her gigs on his time. Your daughter also probably doesn't want to get in an argument with her dad because she doesn't want to be seen as difficult or he may be guilting her by saying that he wants to spend time with her and wouldn't she want to spend time with him and her cousins? If she says she doesn't want to spend that time with him, then it may sound like she doesn't care (in her mind) and she doesn't want him to feel bad.

I think if you have most of the time with her then the most fair thing to do is have an honest conversation with her. You won't be able to change what her father does. The only thing you can do is get her in to hobbies that are more like private lessons, in which you can dictate the schedule. For example, maybe you could suggest she takes up learning an instrument or a foreign language? You could get someone to come out to your house on days you choose and teach her. I wouldn't say no to all hobbies, but I would curate hobbies that wouldn't put you in these tough spots where you feel like you're wasting money. I also wouldn't expect her to have an argument with her dad, it's just a huge task to ask a young girl that may not have the confidence yet or who may not want to hurt her dad's feelings. I would drop hobbies that leave other people dependent on your daughter having an open schedule, because it just isn't the case and it will only make her feel left out when she hears about how everyone else in the class got to do the show but she didn't. Independent hobbies/private lessons is what I would look in to.

[MidniteScribbler]

Perhaps tell her to choose whether she wants to take part on a casual basis, but no major commitments either financial or time wise or she has to talk to cafcass etc.

Please don't say that she can only do her activities if she goes to cafcass. That's as much emotional blackmail as what her father is doing to her. I honestly think that you are partly to blame for this, because you should have had a conversation with her dance/drama teachers long before now and let them know that dad is a twat, and it's disappointing for your DD to be given roles that she has to turn down.

You can say that she can do the dance/drama//sport training, but whilst her father won't allow her to do activities whilst with her, she is unable to take on any roles in shows, etc, but she can still attend practice and training on days when she is with you. Then, when she is ready to push her father, you can help support her to do that.

[sashh]

She is 11 you and her father are adults.

Tell him she is going on the trip, he can have her another time, she is a human not a library book that has to be back on a certain date.

Tell him id he wants to be a baby about it he can go to court and explain why a weekend with him is more important than an outward bound trip, a drama production, a tap dance solo etc.

You dd doesn't need to speak up against her father, the facts are she has missed or will miss these thing for a shit reason.

[Mummyoflittledragon]

I feel sick reading your posts because it’s bringing up some very difficult feelings for me. The fear. I don’t think you have any concept of what you are expecting your little girl to do. I didn’t start standing up to my mother until my 40’s.

What are you personally doing to help the situation? I can’t see that you are doing anything beyond getting frustrated with your dd. You refuse to go back to cafcass, court or withdraw contact so your dd can do her activities. Then expect your dd to advocate for herself when you won’t advocate for her at all. Can’t you see that you are telling her to do something, which you as an adult are not willing to do yourself? No wonder the poor girl is having meltdowns.

Please advocate for your little girl. Your actions (and inactions) are making the situation worse. You’re expecting your dd to advocate for herself when you haven’t given her the means or back up to do it. You were and still are unable to stand up to your ex yet expect an abused child to do the same. You are then blaming her for not having the means. I know this is not your intent but you are facilitating the abuse. From your dds POV you are colluding with her abuser. Thus also becoming an abuser yourself.

I know this is difficult to read. But I think only those, who have been in the position of feeling so completely powerless can truly understand what it is like to be a child like your dd. I used to have meltdowns as you describe. It was because I was so completely suffocated. My mother berated me for those and still talks about them now. My treatment was the cause of those meltdowns. The only thing I could do was to obey the ever changing and confusing rules completely and without question. But at a certain age it was too much.

Wallywobbles
It’s good that your dds found a way out and they have the parenting and type of personality to fight for themselves. It is horrid to condone your 14 yo victim blaming another abused child. You should be teaching her to have compassion for those, less fortunate.

[FixTheBone]

She's 11.

It's your job to stand up to her dad / your ex, not hers.

[NotComingBackAnytimeSoon]

Do you have any of what he has agreed to in writing? Stop talking to him about trips etc and do it in writing/email/text. Do you have any proof he agreed she could go on the trip?

About the drama, write him an email stating how pleased she is to have been chosen. Give the time and dates of the rehearsals, reminding him that as per the contact agreement, he should take her and if he can't here are the details to discuss with the drama school.

[Namenic]

Maybe put all his weekends in a calendar and just never book things on that day. Only do activities if they will accept her being away every other weekend (discuss with coach/teacher before she starts the activity). Maybe that way you will also not have to pay for missed sessions. Also balance what she does with the other kids you have and explain to her about cost, fairness etc?

[larrygrylls]

I think there is definitely a happy medium here and compromise is possible. However it does mean both of you need to go-parent responsibly and talk to one another.

Your daughter does sound like a people pleaser and it sounds like she is trying to please both of you and caught between two stools. No wonder she is upset. She may well be upset at her father’s as ‘mummy makes me do so many hobbies’.

OP, you and her father need to agree on a reasonable amount of hobbies and how that will impact on his time with her. If he is only seeing her two weekly, I would have thought that you could be flexible around which days, in order to facilitate hobbies.

However, if he has said she can do something and it is paid for, she has to be allowed to do it. I would recommend getting him to e mail his assent so he cannot pretend he never gave it. Once assent is given, off she goes and he cannot change his mind.

From what you write, though, she is doing a lot. She probably will need more down time and cannot pursue so many hobbies without getting stressed as work ramps up over the next few years.

[AndItStillSaidFourOfTwo]

'She may need you to be the bad guy on her behalf. If he is so happy to poo-poo the court order that he facilitate her hobbies, then when she has rehearsals etc you poo-poo his contact entitlement. He can take you to court and you can point out this is your only recourse given his violation of the terms of his contact. See how it shakes down there. And then if the upshot is he is allowed to keep sabotaging her you can cancel the hobbies with weekend commitment, as a response from something imposed from outside, not as a way for you to exercise your frustration or as a stick to beat her into provoking a conflict with her dad.'

I agree with this.
And keep your eye out for activities for her. Remind her that it won't be long until she makes her own decisions about her weekends.

[Margot33]

I think it's your fault slightly. You should tell the teacher upfront that your daughter can never do Sunday's because she's away with her dad. So best not to put her in any shows. That's way she can still have fun attending during the week.

[TixieLix]

I'm with MidnightScribbler on this. Don't stop your Dd doing her activities as she's obviously good at them and wants to follow them at college/uni. Have conversations with the organisers and explain the situation and that she can't commit to rehearsals/shows/competitions that fall on her access weekends. Hopefully they'll allow her to still attend to get experience and better herself. The drama one especially will be good for building her confidence.

[BigFatGiant]

I appreciate that it’s frustrating but parents are ultimately responsible for their child’s well being. Clearly her father leaving had had enough of an impact on her to make her willing to do anything he says for his approval. Hopefully as she gets older she will realise that he’s a dick and she doesn’t need it. Perhaps you could explain it this way to him that if he continues not allowing her to do the things she wants because he gets a power trip out of it eventually, most likely once puberty kicks in, she will turn her back to him. It may make him think twice. In the mean time it isn’t fair for you to punish her for not being strong enough to deal with the situation you put her in. I appreciate that it’s difficult to see her disappointed when he says no but clearly her life isn’t completely happy. She already has adversity in it, taking away things that give her joy won’t be character building, it will just make her childhood lesshappy and everyone deserves a happy childhood. You do your job and support her and when it gets frustrating remind yourself that he will eventually get what’s coming to him as will you. Good loving and supportive parents get good loving and supportive children. You have done very well up until this point and, even though it’s frustrating and upsetting, you need keep at it a little bit longer.