To be angry and distressed at the amount of harassment my fourteen year old daughter faces?

[Saggingninja]

A small sample. She's been harassed on a bus by a man in his thirties when she was in her school uniform. Nobody intervened. She was followed slowly down a street by a man in a car, but when she turned to take a photo of his licence plate, he drove off. She was asked for a 'date' by a man who was 'in his fifties'. When she pointed out she was only fourteen he smiled and said 'he didn't mind.' And yesterday on the train with some friends, she noticed this man filming them. When she turned to face him, he stopped and moved away.

My daughter is confident and I've told her not to be afraid of telling anyone harassing her to fuck off or to loudly remind them that she's underage. I put up with so much crap when I was a teenager out of fear of being rude. But I'm so angry and distressed that this happens so often. Nothing has changed has it?

I've never had anyone call it out, men or women, a quick poll here says my sister and 2 friends haven't either.

I'm angry for all of your girls. My DDs are not underage, but they are young women, and it's outrageous what men think they can get away with. They get treated like meat, sometimes.

Men run the world and there are few consequences for their bad behaviour. Let’s hope the young ladies of today succeed in another revolution.

Let's hope that all women in Britain today can stand together and effect another revolution. Why leave it to the youngsters to deal with? Maybe everyone on this thread can make a resolution to do what they can to help a younger woman in trouble from a man.

I’ve never actually posted on here but this has made me so angry. I think a lot of all this just causes girls to not trust men, all men. I was raped at a house party when I was 19 by a guy almost 19 years older. I think the hardest part for me was that he was a good friend and one of the guys I actually trusted to look out for me and stand up for me against creeps. It was at his house and I was tired, it was late, he said the party would still be on for hours and I could sleep in his room- reading back now I feel an idiot and have always blamed myself but I trusted him so when he came in and locked the door I thought it was a joke. Fortunately (I’m some ways) I was a very late developer, was very skinny and didn’t really get boobs until 19 ish and the sudden male attention at uni really shocked me so I made my best effort to look younger as long as possible (especially after that) but lead to compulsive exercise, eating disorders etc and at the worst point self harm. Anyway, I’m rambling but I think what I’m trying to say is that it is really sad that we just have to be wary of men. Someone posted on here about being told all men were potential rapists and I really wish I had been told this growing up.

My 17 yo dd1 has had this ever since she was 13. And even gets disgusting pics sent and guys saying inappropriate things to her all the time. Fortunately isnt afraid to speak up and will gladly put them in their place. Shes just like me full of attitude and sarcasm..but with a much wider vocab and wit..she tears them down with words alone and she does much the same with bullies too. Btw yanbu to be angry, upset and annoyed by it but just make sure she knows how to handle it..we made sure our daughter did self defense its a useful skill. And make sure she knows what to do and where to go if said men do not get the message, i always tell mine to go to a public busy place, like a shop where someone can call police if need be or yourself..somewhere theres other people and always encourage them to travel in pairs at the very least.

People are mean to kids! In September we were on a bus fairly late this drunk man was harassing people on the bus he started with me and actually attempted to break me and DH up...when that didn’t work he started “flirting” with a 15 year old girl there were some other teenagers on the bus who deflected him and one of the boys got off the bus with her and walked her home so he didn’t follow! He then stated an argument with another boy and for some reason the whole bus turned on the 15 year old and not the drunk 40 year old! We were horrified by the attitudes and stuck up for him! We got off and they were both still on there and we felt so bad as that man really could have followed him home or attacked him as he was spoiling for a fight by this point! We called the police! It’s definately not just girls there is a culture of not protecting children once they hit teenage years as “they are a nuisance or rowdy” it makes them so vulnerable!

It’s so depressing this is still going on. I started getting harrassed from age 11, mostly on my way to and from secondary school. From the usual wolf whistles and cat calls, to having two guys come and sit either side of me at the bus stop and asking about my sexual experiences, from older teenage boys throwing things at me on the train when I wouldn’t speak to them, to my parents’ friend asking me whether I liked to wear dominatrix gear in my spare time (I was 14 and my parents were in the next room).

I once tried to stand up for myself against general sexism from an older man and got in such trouble from my mum for being “rude” to the “poor man” that I never told my parents any of the sexual harrassment stuff I faced as I knew I’d be blamed for it.

I remember the feeling of dread I got whenever I was asked to walk to the local shop as I knew I’d pass some weird men who would shout something or follow me. I soon developed the “fuck off” death stare but it didn’t really stop anyone.

My girls will be taught self defence, encouraged to shout loudly at any of these men to leave them alone and stop being a pervert/paedophile and to take photos and report to the police. But to be honest I mainly just hope I don’t have girls so they don’t have to face this shit every day. It’s exhausting and no, I’ve never had a “good man” stand up for me whilst it’s happened. They are either oblivious or deny it happens. If I have sons they will be taught to look out for and speak up against this crap.

Haven't rtft, so may be cross posting, but if there is continuing harrassment from the same person, it should be logged with 101 everytime it happens as it's harrassment They probably won't do anything at first, but the more times it's logged, they can do something. If the same person is reported for similar things by someone else, it strengthens the case for the police.

It's awful. My DD is only 4 but I'm dreading this aspect of her teenage years. One step I'm planning to take is to speak openly with her about it and make her strong and standing up for herself. Perhaps even get her into martial arts if Shen wants herself haha. My parents nevertheless spoke to me about inappropriate behaviour from grown men and I faced lots if it as a teenager, I always felt confused and shameful about it and certainly never stood up to it. I lost my virginity to a 12 year older guy whom I DID fancy but wasn't ready for sex, but when he persisted I gave in because I didn't know what to do. When I started wearing makeup my mum criticised me for it and I remember her saying once when I was going out wearing a low cut top "do you want men only to look at your boobs?" Instead of teaching me I could dress like I damn well liked (I was 16 at the time) and that this didn't excuse inappropriate behaviour. She obvious just didn't know how to deal with it herself as her mother's generation was even more repressed, so I guess it's not her fault, but I think, while we may not be able to change the men who are already grown, we can make our daughters stronger and more aware and make sure our sons don't axt this way. There is hope!

Just going by your OP, your daughter is awesome and so are you. Well done on raising her to challenge this shit.
I was about 12 when I first noticed that men were looking lower down whereas before I'd get eye contact or indifference. Like yourself, I didn't have the confidence. I was raised to never be rude, and even be grateful for male attention. I had everything your DD is facing, and even when a man picked me up off the street and put me over his shoulder to walk off, I was still self conscious about making a scene.
My daughter will respond like yours if I have anything to do with it.

Most men don't do this and most men will call it out when they see it, I believe.

That's really sweet of you but as naive as a belief in unicorns, unfortuately. I have never, ever in my whole life seen this happen.

1. Men don't notice because the very nature of the behaviour is that it usually occurs when women are alone. It is all about targeting vulnerability.

So nothing to do with attractiveness, or style of dress. If it was, my own experience would suggest that leery men have a penchant for girls in loose-fitting, fully-covering sportswear (baggy hoodies etc). It has usually been when travelling to or from some sports practice or other - alone - that this has happened to me. It's the 'alone', not what I was doing or wearing, that appealed.

2. Men don't notice because it isn't happening to them.

3. Even if they do notice, men think it's not their problem because it isn't happening to them.

4. Even if they do notice, or are told about it by women, 'good' men choose to disbelieve or minimise the experience because it isn't happening to them - and, I think, because they want to distance themselves from it as 'something that men do', to cement their 'good guy' self-image and avoid cognitive discomfort. The easiest way to do that, is to pretend it doesn't happen, or adopt the 'a few bad apples, someone else's problem' attitude.

That attitude actually mitigates against their intervening, even when they do see it happening.

You can tell your DDs that she can wear what she likes, and that it’s inappropriate for a man to stare/comment/touch. Buts it’s fucking impossible to instill the confidence in a child that is needed to be able to deal with it when they are feeling embarrassed and humiliated at that point in time.

To some men, it’s sport. They want to make girls and women feel uncomfortable. That’s the aim.

perhaps some males also mis-judge ages.

So is there an age at which it's OK to harass women?

Most men don't do this and most men will call it out when they see it, I believe.

As others have said, it would be great if this were true but sadly it isn't.

Take the reaction to the #metoo movement. On hearing that pretty much every single woman has been the subject of sexual harassment - often multiple times - how did most men react? By saying "Gosh that's awful, I wonder what I could do to prevent other men from doing such disgusting things?" In my experience, no. Generally it was, in ascending order of awfulness:

1. Not all men
2. It happens to men too
3. So a bloke on the bus felt you up? Big deal.
4. Well, you wanted equality, didn't you?

So no, most men would not and do not stand up to this behaviour.

icedpurple my only conclusion is they don't want it to change

It's very hard to come to any other conclusion, sadly.

Exactly, even men who don’t engage in this awful behaviour still benefit from it, as it makes women more weak, vulnerable, afraid and powerless, keeping men in the more powerful position

Most men don't do this and most men will call it out when they see it, I believe.

As others have said, it would be great if this were true but sadly it isn't.

I have to say that my experience is different. I completely agree with a previous poster who said that genuinely predatory men are likely to be so away from other people so are unlikely to be challenged.

In my experience (working in hospitality and venue security) when in a public place or social situation, men are very quick to challenge other men who act inappropriately towards women (probably one of the biggest causes of conflict between strangers in my experience).

It may be considered 'sexist' on 21st century MumsNet but I genuinely believe that most men will still step up to defend a girl/woman if they see them being harassed. I think it's almost an inbuilt urge to protect (like I say, possibly considered sexist these days).

I agree with you comments about MeToo opinion but I think 'blokey opinions' are generally discarded very quickly when we witness something happen in our real lives.

Of course this is only my experience and can only comment for myself and other men I know.

It may be considered 'sexist' on 21st century MumsNet but I genuinely believe that most men will still step up to defend a girl/woman if they see them being harassed.

The lived experience of millions of women says otherwise.

I agree with you comments about MeToo opinion but I think 'blokey opinions' are generally discarded very quickly when we witness something happen in our real lives.

I don't get this. If a man's first reaction to hearing about the sexual harassment which pretty much every single woman has experienced is to cry "whaddaboutdamenz" - or much worse - then why would he leap up to defend a woman who is the victim of something he denies even exists?

Which brings me to my next point: A lot of men think sexual harassment is only sexual harassment if it involves actual physical violence. They tend to dismiss the many forms of harassment where there is no actual violence, even if the implicit threat is always there.

Like someone else - I now get the abuse for daring to be in my 40s and fat. Shouted comments out of cars... young males barging up to me in the street to yell in my face and get off on the freaked out reaction... when I was younger (and thin and fuckable) it was the same - but the shouted sexual comments and the particular party trick in our local area - driving up and down the seafront with water pistols trying to find girls wearing white t-shirts so they could squirt them with water and make the tops go see-through.

My eldest turns 7 next month and I feel like the clock of doom is ticking before the toxic masculinity and fucked-up image-obsessed women-only-worth-how-much-you-want-to-fuck them timebomb starts to detonate.

Horrible. The college I work at had to liaise with local police last year to stop people harassing young female students outside the college. They would leer and pass degrading comments, some students felt unsafe walking to their car or the bus stop. Admittedly all of my students are 16+ but it’s still gross.

Something has to be done.

I know both my sons would challenge that behaviour towards a young girl or woman and so would my partner.
I would also have to say something, my partner and his friend happened to come across a couple arguing once unfortunately the guy started to get aggressive and violent towards to the woman, they felt they had to intervene. Its not something they can ignore, its in there upbringing. They were bought up to respect women.

i have never witnessed a man calling it out. i am amost 50. and i do not live under a rock.