To be angry and distressed at the amount of harassment my fourteen year old daughter faces?

[Saggingninja]

A small sample. She's been harassed on a bus by a man in his thirties when she was in her school uniform. Nobody intervened. She was followed slowly down a street by a man in a car, but when she turned to take a photo of his licence plate, he drove off. She was asked for a 'date' by a man who was 'in his fifties'. When she pointed out she was only fourteen he smiled and said 'he didn't mind.' And yesterday on the train with some friends, she noticed this man filming them. When she turned to face him, he stopped and moved away.

My daughter is confident and I've told her not to be afraid of telling anyone harassing her to fuck off or to loudly remind them that she's underage. I put up with so much crap when I was a teenager out of fear of being rude. But I'm so angry and distressed that this happens so often. Nothing has changed has it?

Everyone says they would intervene in such situations.

In reality, few do.

And it's not just with regards to sexual harassment. It's been shown time and time again that people do not intervene to help strangers in trouble, even when there is no risk to them in so doing. There's even a name for it ' the bystander effect'.

I know both my sons would challenge that behaviour towards a young girl or woman and so would my partner.
I would also have to say something, my partner and his friend happened to come across a couple arguing once unfortunately the guy started to get aggressive and violent towards to the woman, they felt they had to intervene. Its not something they can ignore, its in there upbringing. They were bought up to respect women.

This has typically been my experience (certainly amongst my family and friends)

PBo83 This isn't about women's experiences of 'genuinely predatory men', it's about our ordinary, everyday experiences of a sub-set of ordinary, everyday men, who take an opportunistic approach to harrassing women.

Behaviour inside entertainment venues; behaviour on the street. I can think of a few reasons why those might be different. Can you?

You've seen instances of inappropriate behaviour, that men had noticed, being challenged. What proportion of the total number of instances of innapropriate behaviour experienced by those women in their everyday lives, over weeks, months and years, do you think were noticed by men? Were challenged?

You seem to be saying something like 'in 100% of the cases of aggro having resulted from men challenging other men over inappropriate behaviour towards women, a man had intervened in a case of inappropriate behviour towards a woman.'

Behaviour inside entertainment venues; behaviour on the street. I can think of a few reasons why those might be different. Can you?

I'll ignore the patronising tone and say yes, yes I can see how people may act differently in different scenarios.

You've seen instances of inappropriate behaviour, that men had noticed, being challenged. What proportion of the total number of instances of innapropriate behaviour experienced by those women in their everyday lives, over weeks, months and years, do you think were noticed by men? Were challenged?

This wasn't my point. My point was in response to this idea that 'men don't call out harassment from other men'. Of course nobody is going to respond to something they don't witness.

You seem to be saying something like 'in 100% of the cases of aggro having resulted from men challenging other men over inappropriate behaviour towards women, a man had intervened in a case of inappropriate behviour towards a woman.'

Sorry, I'm not sure I follow. If I were to challenge someone on their behaviour then there is a high chance of a negative reaction from that person. So yes, in 100% of instances where this has been the cause of confrontation, this was the cause of the confrontation. I'm not being obtuse but I don't understand your point. Of course I'm not saying that ALL bad behaviour (towards anyone) is witnessed/challenged but do believe that, on the occasions it is, a significant proportion of men (and women) WILL challenge it.

Infact my son has intervened and got a black eye for his trouble but he would still do it again..he has 2 younger sisters and will walk several girls home even if its out of his way and takes hours, this is just how he was raised.

Also, a significant element of most opportunistic abuse (IME) is 'safe distance or quick getaways', making the abuse very difficult to challenge, by the person its aimed at or anyone else.

Men commonly shout abuse from moving cars and buses, while walking past going the other way, or from high up - classically on building site scaffolding. Safe distances or quick getaways.

What is your strategy for challenging these abusers?

Men commonly shout abuse from moving cars and buses

Do they? Really? I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it's not exactly 'common' is it? I appreciate it is unlikely to have happened to me but, in my 35+ years of conscious existence, I can count on one hand the amount of times I've witnessed anything of this nature. (On a lighter note, how does one shout out the window of a bus? It's hard enough to get the bloody things open!)

What is your strategy for challenging these abusers?

I wasn't saying that abuse didn't happen or that I had the answers to all sexual harassment. Nor was I claiming to be a one-man army sent to uphold the virtue of women. ALL I was saying (in response to previous post about men not challenging other men) is that, in my experience, when it is witnessed and can be challenged, a good proportion of men will speak up.

@supermommyof4

Sounds like you've done a great job with your sons :)

As a stepfather of one girl who is taking strides into teenagedom, it's good to know there are guys like that out there

@lottiegarbanzo

Agreed. Most - certainly not all - predators plan their 'activies' so as to not attract attention or provide a quick getaway. Like harassing women who are alone, shouting abuse from cars, groping women on crowded trains where there is plausible (not really) deniability. So yes, it would be difficult for men - or women - to intervene in such situations.

However, given the at best disdainful, at worst indulgent attitude which so many men show towards women's experience of sexual harrassment, I am not at all confident that male culture is discouraging of such activities. It may be only a minority - though not that small a minority - of men who actively behave in this manner, but a very large number of men turn a blind eye.

uphold the virtue of women

What?

If you "appreciate it is unlikely to have happened to me", how do you feel confident to assert that it's "not exactly common"? You've literally just said, why you wouldn't know how common it is.

The thing is, this thread is about the life experiences of women and girls.

A handful of instances of abuse being challenged in entertainment venues (where the social dynamic offers different motivations and opportunities for doing so than on the street), is neither here nor there really, from a woman's point of view.

Do women and girls, including young girls, still face sexual harrassment from men as a commonplace occurence? Yes.

Do men usually, often, or ever in many women's experience, intervene to prevent this or remonstrate with the abuser? No.

I wonder if these men, shouting from cars etc, think it’s ‘just banter’? Call them out on it and they get uppity out of embarrassment.

Any man making offensive, humiliating or inappropriate comments to young women is either thick or predatory.

@PutasticUsername

Because I spend a large proportion of my time outside in busy areas and someone shouting from a car or bus is likely to be noticeable from a fair distance.

@IcedPurple

That was said 'in cheek' which is clearer in context

@O4FS

"Any man making offensive, humiliating or inappropriate comments to young women is either thick or predatory."

Absolutely agree.

Funny that because, as described upthread, my experience of being shouted at from cars and buldings has consistently correlated with my being alone - at that moment, on that stretch of road or pavement.

Then there are the 'hidden in plain sight' approaches, like the men who gesture for you to wind down your window, as if they're about to tell you your light's broken, but say obscenities instead. Not loud, not visibly distinguishable from an everyday, legitimate interaction.

This is very low level but really annoyed me.
I was waiting to cross the road and a guy stopped his car and let me cross. I thanked him to which he responded "don't I get a smile for that?"

But it’s that low level stuff that is missed. He thought he was entitled to tell you how you should react.

It’s fucking irritating at best.

I am bleakly amused that an interaction with a man has just gone direct from acknowledging my point one, to arriving at my point four:

1. Men don't notice because the very nature of the behaviour is that it usually occurs when women are alone. It is all about targeting vulnerability.

2. Men don't notice because it isn't happening to them.

3. Even if they do notice, men think it's not their problem because it isn't happening to them.

4. Even if they do notice, or are told about it by women, 'good' men choose to disbelieve or minimise the experience because it isn't happening to them.

"Men commonly shout abuse from moving cars and buses

Do they? Really? I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it's not exactly 'common' is it? "

hahahahahahaha! seriously??!!!

"I appreciate it is unlikely to have happened to me but, in my 35+ years of conscious existence, I can count on one hand the amount of times I've witnessed anything of this nature."

I don't get this - why do you think it wouldn't have happened to you?

Oh - are you a man? Sorry not caught up with thread yet.

"ALL I was saying (in response to previous post about men not challenging other men) is that, in my experience, when it is witnessed and can be challenged, a good proportion of men will speak up."

Oh yes sorry you are a chap! Missed that somehow.

You don't experience it as you're a man.

You have no idea how often men will challenge if they witness, you are guessing that they are pretty keen on doing this due to "protective instinct".

The women on here are telling you,

That they don't. You are wrong. This is outside the realm of your personal experience so I hope you will listen and believe what what women tell you about this.

Go and stand outside a girls school at home time. Plenty of men loitering.

One cornered me. I was 11, couldn’t get away. Didn’t know what to do. Went home and cried and cried. I didn’t know why I was upset, none of it made any sense. I can feel now how I felt then. 38 years ago.

But I am lucky. I’ve had my arse slapped, been cat called, told to ‘smile’, gone the long way round, held my keys in my fingers, had someone accompany me home when I was frightened, consented when I was scared etc. Other friends have had far, far worse to contend with.

And I look at my daughters and I hate the men who will do the same to them. And I hate the men who won’t do anything to stop the behaviour of their sex.

So I promised myself that I will always step in, make a noise, keep my eyes open and call it out when I see it. It’s always going to be down to the women isn’t it?

Oh, the one lone voice questioning all our lived experiences is a man. You couldn't make it up. I walk and use public transport a lot. It's more unusual not to get comments or attempts to make me uncomfortable. But I guess I'm exaggerating for no reason whatsoever, anonymously online, because some bloke can't get their head around it as they don't have the same experiences, being a man!

But I guess I'm exaggerating for no reason whatsoever, anonymously online, because some bloke can't get their head around it as they don't have the same experiences, being a man!

I was stating my experiences and only that. I wasn't dismissing the experiences of others or denying them (although I did question how 'common' it is for blokes to shout from moving cars).

I don't defend or deny the actions of a minority of men who believe that this behaviour (and worse) is acceptable as clearly it isn't.

My point was only that, in my experience, a significant proportion of men WILL call out others who are acting in an aggressive/harassing way towards women WHEN IT IS OBSERVED (which I appreciate may be the minority of the time).

"I was stating my experiences and only that ( as a man on a thread about something women experience).
I wasn't dismissing the experiences of others or denying them (although I did question how 'common' it is for blokes to shout from moving cars) ( in other words, you were)."

"I don't defend or deny the actions of a minority of men who believe that this behaviour (and worse) is acceptable as clearly it isn't."

Minority who believe it is wrong? Minority probably do it, loads and loads of blokes don't see the harm though, banter etc.
Also bear in mind that some men will find this behaviour wrong when they are older, but may have joined in with something when they were younger.
Would he count himself as a "good guy"? Probably, I reckon.

"My point was only that, in my experience, a significant proportion of men WILL call out others who are acting in an aggressive/harassing way towards women WHEN IT IS OBSERVED (which I appreciate may be the minority of the time)."

NO THEY DON'T.

They really don't.