That instrumental delivery should be banned?

[PineapplePower]

I know it’s the DM but this is shocking:

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6797199/As-doctors-midwives-finally-act-searing-expos-childbirths-shameful-secret.html

They say 10 percent of mums suffer from some sort of anal incontinence! Claims forceps are the biggest cause so why are they still used? AIBU to say they should be banned? Why couldn’t you just get a C-sec at that point?

The threads on here from women having to battle to get a planned CS are legion. Nary a week goes by without one, often due to previous birth injury. But I don't see the situation improving at all, in fact it will get worse with future budget cuts and relying on family or 'partners' to provide postnatal care so they can cut maternity funding even more.

Flamingosandbears the only people on here who are showing ignorance are those who insist that using forceps is the only alternative to having a dead baby.

Denmark has one of the lowest rates of stillbirth in the world (lower than us) and they don’t use forceps. Norway has much lower rates of mothers who have severe tears they also have a lower rate of still birth. If other countries have better birth outcomes for mothers and babies this should be something that we should be trying to learn from rather than to shut up and be grateful that their baby is not dead.

I thought this would be about mailing guitars and drum kits

I love you harrysowl

As the 'user' of two planned c sections, I think it's only cost and toxic-femininity which keep us having vaginal births.

But that's obviously the result of your choices? As someone who had a straightforward vaginal birth FOR ME it would have been a lot of unnecessary suffering to have had a planned C-section and I'm glad I didn't. What I think research should really concentrate on is better ways to predict problems in advance - that's the only way to reduce both the emergency caesarean and instrumental birth rate (by having more planned caesareans for women at high risk of needing an emergency caesarean or instrumental birth) AND the unnecessary caesarean rate. Of course no prediction would be perfect but at the moment apart from very obvious problems (eg breech baby) they don't even really try. I also think they should be much more upfront about the ways the risks change with other conditions (SPD, much older mothers, obesity) and much more willing to offer planned sections in those cases.

'I find the idea that the absolute ideal is for a woman's body to show no signs she has ever given birth a bit suspicious, too.'

This, very very much this. An idea also in full flow on the thread about the rude woman accusing OP of pregnancy. The foulest, most vicious language is being used about this - admittedly rude and graceless, and quite possibly disturbed - woman, because apparently it's a terrible thing almost without compare to have a tummy (many of which will come from previous pregnancies/births).

I've recovered well from an episiotomy (birth 1), a stitched second-degree tear (birth two) and a non-stitched first-degree tear (birth three). Things are possibly/probably a little different there (I'm rather farty, tbh, which is of course not ideal). The idea that differences in my genitals mean a non-erasable damage/change in my essence is a bit alarming.

Birth injuries are a different matter. I don't doubt that these and their impact can be worsened by dismissive treatment during birth and after. That needs to change.

I was told that historically Canada had so many maternal deaths due to large variations in size. Tiny women, strapping huge men, and that more homogenous countries had less problems.
I’ve also seen a few South African Dr’s use their hands like forcepts, getting their hands past the ishial spines, using their fingers to grab the head and pulling babies in severe trouble out.

I had to battle to get a planned c section when I had my second DC. The two main reasons driving my choice were 1. That I’d had an ECS when I had my first DC. He very nearly didn’t make it because they failed to pick up that he was in distress and his HB was half what it should have been (they thought they were picking up my HB when it was his). I wanted a planned controlled birth after having been traumatised by the first. Second reason was I saw a baby in the hospital where I had DC 1 whose head had been left black and blue from bruising caused by a forceps delivery. Obviously I don’t know the exact circumstances of that baby’s birth but I remember feeling shocked when I saw what the forceps had done.

@ OP - former midwife here. They're used here to expedite birth in cases of fetal distress, to facilitate a vaginal birth where possible, and to avoid a 2nd stage CS if they can. As I mentioned up thread, a 2nd stage section where there has been descent is not ideal, pushing the baby up by the head is not without its risks too, add to that the potential delay from possible distress/decelaration to theatre (even in a dire category 1 GET THE BABY OUT section, you're still talking minutes, which could have implications for the baby if its deprived of oxygen during that time).

Reading this thread, I'm really sad so many had shit experiences, and shit aftercare. It makes me sad and angry, to say the least. A healthy is important, however it's NOT the only thing that matters. You matter too.

I’ve also seen a few South African Dr’s use their hands like forcepts, getting their hands past the ishial spines

Whoa, what are the outcomes on that like?

This is the thing though. I have had easy uncomplicated births. A elective caesarion would be overkill for me however...

My friends baby had their cord wrapped round their neck and significant birthing injuries. Her next baby also had their cord wrapped his neck and significant birthing injuries.

How many women on this thread have said they had multiple difficult births.

Will i was giving birth, in the next room there was a woman in agony for hours completely unable to give birth to a feet first baby. She ended up blue lighted to hospital, which added anoth 30odd mins before any kind of intervention was possible.

Why on earth after one difficult birth are we expecting the next to be fine and dandy?

Yes instrumental delivery should be banned. Because in this day and age we should never get to the stage where the only way to save mother and babys life is by instrumental delivery.

@TFBundy I completely agree, and as with you the risk of incontinence was enough for me to request an ELCS.

Gosh this was a sobering read. It's truly shocking that so many women are left with life long problems and are dismissed by the medical profession.

The problem is not just forceps. It's poorly managed births, because some midwives are not following good practice eg telling women to labour on their backs and low staffing/inexperience means they are not able to spend enough time with a woman to accurately assess how her Labour is progressing.
I had an induction and the m/w left me to push for 4 hours lying on my back, I was exhausted and semiconscious, ended up with syntocinon drip and forceps.
The doctor who delivered DS dragged him out, she had her feet braced against the end of the bed. The midwife should never have left me to push for that long, she should have got help much earlier. I had terrible bruising and stitches that got infected but it sound like we were lucky it wasn't worse.

I had a forceps delivery, the one thing that I did not want but by the end I didn’t care it had all gone bad so quickly yet went on for so long I just wanted DS out healthy and alive. They saved his life and we are lucky we have not had any long lasting effects although my recovery was quite rough going

Are there actually any reliable statistics on the number of forceps deliveries which result in lasting damage to mother or baby?

My DS was delivered with forceps, obviously I wasn’t thrilled about it but by that point I would’ve consented to them getting him out with a rusty pair of pliers. DS had a tiny mark on his head which had disappeared by a couple of months, and I had episiotomy and stitches but was fully healed and no lasting effects whatsoever within around 8 weeks. I trampoline, I run, I jump, no problems. I suspect on MN we hear a lot more about the problematic cases than the normal ones and that skews the perception of risk.

Outcome fine pineapple.
For me the really bad births were not the ones with forcepts, or vacuum.
I’ve been present for hundreds, it’s the ones that bleed that set my heart racing.

we hear a lot more about the problematic cases than the normal ones and that skews the perception of risk

We just don’t have a lot of good stats on this either way.

I do know that the huge decline in forceps usage in American hospitals is largely linked with perceived risk of lawsuits/litigation.

Yabu. My dc would have died without that intervention, too late for csection. I had incontinence and damage which required physio and still isn't 100%. It was awful but better then my dc dying.

@ThatFalseEquivalenceTho I just wanted to acknowledge your story and say it absolutely was not ok. Not fucking acceptable at all. You have every right to be angry and question culture and practice. I think birthing policy makers should have to yearly sit in a room for training and listen to a succession of stories like yours and look at different practices in other countries.

@Queenunikitty you are a strong woman to take that view

I feel a bit sad that some women on this thread are dismissing other women’s horrific stories as tied up in silly ideas. It’s a discussion we need to have. Is it preventable? How do other countries manage it? Does this ever need to happen to women, and if it does are we acceptably managing it.

The whole culture of lack of choice and treatment of women in labour needs questioning.

I’m blessed to have had a series of vaginal births with easy healing and no ongoing issue. Not total luck, but also having advocates and decent professionals who allowed movement and listened to me. I wish all women could at least leave labour in the belief the best was done for them and their child.

@AndItStillSaidFourOfTwo that’s a fair point about our standards for bodies post birth. I say I have no complications, but I have differences I’m happy with. Some sexual positions are actually easier tbh. My belly is softer, but I’m happy in my skin. I’m sure a professional could guess I’ve had a VB (or 5...) but it’s quite ok

I know it’s day fail but I find myself agreeing. My ds 1 was a forceps delivery. I was induced 72 hours after my waters broke due to no hospital beds. By the time he was born I had a high fever and he scored 1/9 on apgar. I have vaginal and anal Incontinence as well as ptsd. It took me 7 years to have another child. Intimacy with my husband is non existence as sex is painful. That delivery has ruined my life. I’m still so angry. I had my other baby 7 years later by c section and it was a breeze. A walk in the park.

Lndnmummy

PanamaPattie - It doesn’t matter about the long term physical or mental health of a woman, as long as the baby is ok. Right?

Well, that’s basically what HollyGoLoudly1 said - ”Incontinence is better than something happening to the baby, although obviously a horrible consequence for the mum.”