That instrumental delivery should be banned?

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I know it’s the DM but this is shocking:

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6797199/As-doctors-midwives-finally-act-searing-expos-childbirths-shameful-secret.html

They say 10 percent of mums suffer from some sort of anal incontinence! Claims forceps are the biggest cause so why are they still used? AIBU to say they should be banned? Why couldn’t you just get a C-sec at that point?

I agree that better management of the whole labour process could avoid the the use of instruments that can cause long term health consequences. I agree with the people who said that without forceps they and their baby would be dead. Same for me. However, I firmly believe that better labour management would have led to a decision for a CS earlier. As it was, I had a trial by forceps for a baby in distress. Luckily for DD it worked. Really, if they had identified that her head not pointing downwards but off to one side and the contractions that were never regular contributed to a strong likelihood of difficulty in her exiting, then we could have made an informed and less traumatic judgement on how to manage that stage of labour.

I was left with a double prolapse and also did not get an episiotomy and tore instead. But the consultant whilst sewing me up said it was much better to have forceps as I would be able to birth another baby naturally. She also discussed letting DH see her stitching to see if he was happy...

Oh and because of the damage I did not have another child. So that worked out well.

@MommaDuck but who are women supposed to seek help from? I've had two children in different parts of the country, and the health visitors have been worse than useless, and my GPs do not want to know anything about the mother, only the baby, and even then, very little. How is a mother supposed to seek help from a health visitor who 1) barges in, unannounced, when you and your husband are not dressed, and refuses to f*ck off until you're decent; 2) dismisses potential mental health problems, telling you that you know the "correct" way to fill out the idiotic PND questionnaire so as to not raise any eyebrows; 3) is outright rude and judgmental that you dared to have private maternity care; 4) is vocal and judgmental about the fact that you've opted for an episiotomy over tearing, and then refuses to check your stitches because she "doesn't believe in episiotomies". This is a summary of several health visitors, by the way, not one bad apple.

Where are women meant to seek advice or support?

Health visitors in my area don't pick up the phone. They don't respond to voicemails. GPs give exactly zero fucks. What about women who do not have the means to seek help privately when the NHS lets them down utterly and completely? What about women who are not aware of the degree to which they must advocate for themselves? Who do they turn to when health visitors/midwives/GPs show no care or compassion?

I was threatened with forceps after a 24 hour labour with DS1 - "if he doesn't come in the next 10 minutes we'll have to get the forceps out". I was utterly exhausted, but it gave me the push I needed to give it one last go. Still ended up with episiotomy which gives me grief 19 years later, but the thought of forceps was horrifying. Instruments of torture.

Part of the reason I went for home births for the next two, as my hospital experience was horrendous from start to finish.

SophiaLarssen I'm not sure it would have helped TBH - my DDs head was facing to the side and the midwives had been aware of this for at least 12 if not closer to 24 hours before I was finally wheeled off to theatre for forceps. The midwife even commented on how that position often made it harder. They knew it, but for whatever reason this did not result in any action. I would like to know why this is?

For me, I won't be having any more children but my DD was always going to be the only (have a step DD too), though even St Thomas's said 'there would be a strong argument for CS in any future pregnancies'.

I've just emailed st Thomas PALs for details on their birth reflections service. Have any of you who experience traumatic deliveries use a similar service and did you find it at all useful/cathartic?

@wburg
Completely agree with most of your comments... I have numerous voicemails on my phone, a huge carselod, clinics that are full and minimal time to juggle it all. This week I haven’t seen my children in the evenings because every night I have worked from home to respond to texts, telephone families back and complete my admin. I work 9-5. This week at has been 8-8. I don’t get paid for additional hours, but try and do the best I can to make a difference.
But yes I’m inclined to agree with you, the health services currently are shit, out quite simply. But it is not that I am uninterested in my families problems, it’s that I am trying to battle my way through piles and piles of work and do the best I can.

As for therapy, I used an NHE counselling service and waited months for it. Because I cannot afford private services. I trained for 5 years, to get paid shit money and work unpaid overtime to try and make a difference, but battle policies I don’t agree with and time constraints.

So by seeking help, I meant use a local NHS therapy service where available for people.

DH was busy making sure DD was being looked after and fortunately has common sense in abundance so even if he had not been distracted with being a dad, he wouldn't have come down for a look! Can you imagine...

RedOrangeYelloworGreen I am not infantilising anyone the whole point of the Op’s thread is how uninformed most woman are with regards to potential prolapses, incontinence problems, both bladder and anal, and if you are already vulnerable the fact that a traumatic birth can exacerbate existing mental health conditions. We should all be well informed. Unfortunately as has been proved on this thread, there is much secrecy in the medical profession. regarding long term health problems for women.

I didn't mean to seem like I was telling you how to give birth RedOrangeYelloworGreen. I actually wish someone had told me the truth about VB before it happened and pushed a C section more. I wish I had read "scary" stories on the internet so I knew what might happen.

As for having help, I have psychotherapy (not directly for this, but I have discussed it). But what about the physical issues? No amount of therapy can improve that, can allow me to poo normally, to not wet myself etc.

I had ventouse with DS2. The ventouse was fine , didn’t feel rough at all and I had no bruising and baby didn’t have a mark. However the episiotomy was dreadful to recover from. I’d like those banned. Luckily no long term problems.

I had a failed forceps/ emergency c section with my daughter who is 11 next month. It was a horrendous labour 17 hours, an epidural which numbed the contractions but not the fact that baby was pressing on the sciatic nerve. Two hours of pushing, no progress, failed forceps then baby was pushed back up and delivered by c section. She was a difficult baby/ toddler and at every dr/ health visitor appointment I was always asked if she’d had a difficult birth.

@intentsandporpoises fair enough, it is just interesting that your reaction to me saying that I'd prefer forceps to a c section was to question if I have given birth before (I have - admittedly no forceps but I can claim episiotomy, retained placenta, emergency surgery under GA and 2 litre haemorrhage) or that I haven't read the accounts on here (I have).

I do understand why you feel strongly about this if you had a terrible birth experience. And I'm not minimising that - I still carry my own mental and emotional scars from the early days of having a newborn, although in my case they're feeding related rather than birth related.

My point is just don't assume that if a woman wouldn't make the same choices as you about birth, she's uninformed or inexperienced. I have read up a lot about the risks and consequences of different types of birth and I'd still always prefer to go for a VB.

@user1457017537 I think information about the risks should be made available to women but that's different to telling them how to give birth. Unless you're a medical professional of course, but even then there are limits and it's ultimately up to the woman to decide what she wants to do on the basis of clear facts.

Some of the stories on here are terrible and it really does bring home how traumatic birth can be. However in "real life" the most traumatic birth I know of was my friend who had a CS which went very badly.

The babies in my family are all big which is a risk factor. There have been very dramatic births in my family and so far we have been very fortunate in that both mothers and babies have recovered well despite crash emergency c sections etc. I just want safe births for all woman and babies.

And what are the comparable rates of CS between Sweden and the other countries using forceps?

Sweden's would appear to be lower than ours. 17% according to this:

bmcpregnancychildbirth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12884-018-2007-7

They appear to be starting from an unwarranted CS bad perspective, but I don't see any reason to assume the stat is wrong. BBC site says their elective rate is 8%, so 9% EMCS sounds plausible enough. Of course, their birthing population is different to ours anyway so there's that. We are heavier. That makes a difference. Our healthcare system is also going down the toilet and theirs isn't, so there's that.

@Battenburg1978 I used the st Thomas birth reflections service at 9 months pp.

I'd say my feeling about it are mixed. Going through the notes with the midwife confirmed that I did have a terrible time - it wasn't just in my head! And that weirdly made me feel a bit better - like I hadn't just been a wimp about the whole thing. Id given as much as I could.

The rest of it was a mixture of blaming me:

• why didn't you come into the hospital sooner? (Regarding my horribly long labour at home. Called twice, was put off both times.)
• why didn't you just refuse all medical care so they would have had to give you a c section? (After I requested / begged three times, and was put off each time.)

And deflecting blame from / waxing lyrical about one particular staff member:

• "oh, you must have misunderstood him. I'm sure he was clear. He's an excellent communicator. Maybe you weren't clear in your request." To the point where my usually sweet husband said to me as she left the room at one point "well, either he did fuck it up as royally as we thought, or she's fucking him!"

Eventually, we got to "I'm sorry, on this occasion St Thomas let you down." Which was good to hear, but doesn't fix my injuries.

She also swore that obviously next time (HA!) id get a c section. But if I walked in to a booking appointment newly pregnant tomorrow, I bet I'd have to fight every step of the way to get that, so I'm never having another child. I don't want to risk more damage, and whilst they took excellent care of my little boy, I don't trust them to take care of me.

Thank you for sharing your experience Sar032 xx

I know that immediate recovery can be trickier with a C section (albeit not at all my personal experience) but what long term consequences are they beyond adhesions?

I chose a c section because of lower risk of brain damage to the baby as well better odds for my pelvic floor.

I want to thank each and every woman who has spoken out about these issues. My life has been ruined because of my physical pronlems. I am ashamed and embarrassed about havingto wear a nappy nightly, in case I wet the bed. These problems are much worse later in life due to I guess the human body aging and effects of the menopause. The trouble is that all women should be given the choice, not forced into having a vag birth. I have seen massive babies being born vaginally. Plus risky births such as mine. It is disgusting. It was my body and I was given absolutely no choice. In fact the midwife had never delivered twins and wanted this. So I was made to suffer.

Reading this thread has made me realise I really should have had a CS with my youngest - he was in distress, meconium in the waters, heart rate dropping with every contraction, his head was stuck behind the 'lip' of my cervix, and when he came out he had the cord wrapped twice around his neck. I was exhausted and asked for a CS but they convinced me to keep trying and I nearly had to have ventouse (forceps were never mentioned, they aren't used as much where I am). Had a major PPH and they saw that my bladder was too full which was no surprise as they had me on a drip for nearly 24 hours but I couldn't stand up to go to the loo.

Makes me so angry that childbirth is still so barbaric.

One of the longer term consequences of CS is that you're at greater risk of miscarriage, stillbirth and placental issues in future pregnancies. It's still small in real terms, but there will be women who've suffered post CS losses that would not otherwise have happened. This of course is only a risk if there are going to be any future pregnancies. I have had a CS and as I have no intention of having more children, the increased risk of stillbirth is of zero concern to me personally.

Sit do you have a source with those statistics? The only one I know of is increased risk of placenta previa and placenta accretia.

I can't find the study but reports:

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/278978.php

www.webmd.com/baby/news/20140701/c-section-may-raise-odds-of-failed-pregnancy-later-study

It's still small though. I guess at least some of the losses would be caused by placental issues anyway?

Thanks sit. I wonder if it's caused by the cesarean or if it's that most women who have cesareans struggle to have straight forward pregnancies when compared to the population who don't have cesareans? As most cesareans are for medical reasons I wonder whether this is cause or effect.