Is it offensive or am I being silly?

[CocaColaaa]

Just a quick one but NC for this as I guess its outing.

My childrens school are doing world book day and the “theme” is peter pan, its given some suggestions of characters you can dress up as and one is tigerlilly. I was thinking of chosing that one for DD as I hate all of the tinkerbell dresses but ive heard its offensive to dress up as certain things. Native americans being on of them. Is it offensive or am I being silly? Why oh why do they have to do themes and not just let people pick their favourite book characters 😩

Could a little girl dress up as Tiger Lily as long as it was done on a loving way?

Could I ‘black up’ in a loving way?

recrudescence Bertram is referrring to an earlier poster who said that cultural appropriation was fine as long as it was done in a loving way, ideally with a handmade costume.

“Could a little girl dress up as Tiger Lily as long as it was done on a loving way?

Could I ‘black up’ in a loving way?“

Apparantly.

Pumperthepumper thank you for that and please excuse me for not reading the thread thoroughly. So when BertrandRussell says she is assuming the voice of a “blackamoor servant” it is to satirise another poster who claimed racism could be loving?

@Tacolover I said in my other comment some people are offended some not,so shut the fuck up.it was an example of what I have encountered. My opinion now the rest of you can go fuck yourself coming back up with questions to this and picking at my comments.

Yes but you used it as part of your argument. You said that it didn't offend you then went on to say how it doesn't matter because it's just a costume. And there's no need to tell me to 'shut the fuck up'I also think it's strange that you tell us to go fuck ourselves instead of replying to you when this is a public discussion thread. Why do you not want people to engage in discussion with you, if your points are so valid?

For those making the "it's just a fictional character" argument. Why does that matter in the slightest? Why is Tiger Lily's fictional status justification for perpetuating a crude and offensive stereotype?

And as for the idea that it's fine to dress up this way because no actual Native Americans will be present, I honestly despair. Would you make anti-Semitic comments as long as no one who is Jewish could hear you? Would you freely use racist language if no one belonging to that group happened to be present? (I'm a bit afraid of the answers, to be frank.)

Some people see what they want to see, and love using it as a stick to beat others with. All OP wanted was people's opinions, and hopefully she will be able to find a nice costume for her child.

I really don't understand your argument.

You can't deny that Tiger Lily is a character written purely to mock and misrepresent Native Americans, with no actual storyline or character development. You can't deny that her character is full of racist stereotypes.

You can't deny that today Native Americans are being oppressed with the same racist stereotypes by (vast majority) white people.

And you honestly can't see how some Native Americans, who are being oppressed currently, may be upset at seeing a white person dressed up as an incredibly racist caricature of their culture?

so shut the fuck up.

My opinion now the rest of you can go fuck yourself

With these nuggets of wisdom and nuanced articulation, I now completely see your side of the argument, Rspu3.

Well reasoned.

Some people see what they want to see, and love using it as a stick to beat others with.

Suggesting people apply a bit of sensitivity, empathy and consideration, and just not do something, is really not beating people with a stick.

Of course her character wasn't written purely to mock and misrepresent Native Americans. I don't see it as an anthropological treatise. It is absolutely typical of its time. You cannot retrospectively ascribe intent to mock and misrepresent just to suit your agenda. I regret that some Native Americans still live in poverty. Well, guess what, they are hardly alone in that.

A metaphor, sparkle!

Oops sparkie, bifocals letting me down ;-)

Dot, I was of course being somewhat satirical, so do not despair!

Nicely put Caroline

I regret that some Native Americans still live in poverty. Well, guess what, they are hardly alone in that.
Again, I'm giving a Canadian perspective here, as I have more knowledge of it (but even then, less than I ought to).

It is not simply that some First Nations people live in poverty. Even if we dismiss all of the events from colonial times as ancient history (which we shouldn't), we only need to look back around half a century to when a generation of children were stolen from their parents and placed in 'residential schools'. Plenty died (you don't have to go far to find graveyards for unidentified babies and children) and many of the survivors, raised without their families, alienated from their culture and exposed to neglect and abuse, have PTSD.

You then have a generation of people, many of whom were raised without any real concept of parenthood and still suffering from PTSD, raising families of their own, but often not well equipped to do so. So the trauma become intergenerational.

It is not just that a very disproportionate number of First Nations people live in poverty, but there are also disproportionate rates of suicide, violence, substance abuse, etc. And of course, the ongoing racism.

I really feel like I am not adequately expressing the ongoing and real effects of current and historic (but within living memory) discrimination of First Nations justice, but needless to say it goes far beyond some of them living in poverty.

Filbert7 I absolutely hear what you're saying! Of course I apologise for any offence caused. It is really neither here nor there who needs our pity and respect, I would say ANY disadvantaged people. In my own family we have tales of hardship passed down through the generations, but to have it in living memory must be very hard to bear.
Trying(!) to return to my original point. Do you think if American Indians had lived to enjoy a better outcome, would the portrayal of Tiger Lily be seen as quaint rather than offensive?

The point clearly remains, Caroline.

Just don't do something if you think it may cause offence. How hard is it?

Honestly, people are twisting and turning this, and trying to make it monumentally complicated, when it couldn't be more simple.

I'm reminded of the sort of men in the wake of #metoo who responded along the lines of, 'you can't even look at / talk to a woman now, without being accused of sexual assault'.

Plenty of people easily manage not to be twits just by taking the straight forward, easy route of not being a twit.

If you're find it so challenging as to be impossible, take a moment to reflect on what that says about you.

I can only assume people are taking the piss now.

I'm white, so I'm not particularly well placed to say. On the one hand, I do imagine that, had white Europeans arrived in North America and treated its natives with respect and as equals, then there'd be a lot less resentment. However, in such a world, I don't think the character of Tigerlily would exist in the form she does (as she is basically a racist trope).

Either way, the reality is that we committed a genocide of native people, criminalized aspects of their culture, tried to erase their languages, religious beliefs and practices. At the same time, in literature we created unflattering characters which bastardized and mocked (sometimes intentionally, maybe sometimes less so) the cultures of those groups.

We are finally, finally trying to build some bridges and lesson the awful effects (so far is as even possible) of colonialism on North America's indigenous people, but the trauma is still present and everyday racism continues.

I think it's hard to try and build a relationship of trust and respect with people of a culture that was all but decimated by ours, whilst at the same time encouraging our children to dress up as a racist characters of them.

@Filbert7 - it's almost impossible to explain to people who don't live in countries with indigenous populations what the reality is.

I say almost impossible because some people clearly are capable of trying to understand, even if they can't see it.

Sorry - obviously that should be countries with indigenous + settler populations.

Thanks for answering my question, Filbert. I suppose we can never be sure.

Thanks for answering my question, Filbert. I suppose we can never be sure.
So maybe we can discard your hypothetical question altogether and focus on the real world.

And if you do that, and maybe take the time to educate yourself further, I think you'll quickly come to the realization that British kids should not be dressing up as a racist parody of Native Americans.

Still undecided. Not a fan of the mermaid dresses either if im honest. If I was to choose it I would pick this which looks ok and has positive reviews someone even said their child wore it to school.

www.amazon.co.uk/Christys-Catcher-Native-American-Costume/dp/B00MCJJBIE/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ref=plSrch&keywords=pocahontas+costume+kids&dpPl=1&dpID=4157z%2BHq%2BWL&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1551642539&sr=8-3