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To think Stacey Dooley was right in her response to David Lammy

821 replies

CoolCarrie · 28/02/2019 13:12

“ Africa doesn’t need white saviours” says Lammy commenting on pictures of Stacey Dooley on a comic relief trip. Why pick on her? Loads of celebrities over the years have gone to Africa to show how money is helping the poorest of the poor, and the huge difference it has made over the years.
What Africa does need is governments that are not corrupt and better leaders.

OP posts:
Rory786 · 01/03/2019 13:42

Exactly UbbesPonytail

Lammy said he has nothing against Dooley, but surely we should be allowed free speech and this is how things change for the better....

Rory786 · 01/03/2019 13:45

Aeroflotgirl

agree 100%

cheesydoesit · 01/03/2019 13:46

It’s not an anti-white rhetoric. To say that completely supports the notion of the white saviour; that we know best and how dare that be questioned?!

Exactly. The use of 'anti-white' makes me cringe tbh, and that's not me 'trying to be trendy'. I just think it lacks awareness and sounds like it's more about wounded pride.

Aeroflotgirl · 01/03/2019 14:26

cheesy why shoulden't stereotypes be challenged, they are unhelpful, and negative!

cheesydoesit · 01/03/2019 14:47

Is that what I said? Did I type 'stereotypes should not be challenged'?

How is using the term 'anti-white' anything but inflammatory? For me (you don't have to agree), it sounds a bit of a tit for tat, knee-jerk reaction without trying to understand why your instant reaction is to feel attacked and to describe that thing as 'anti-white'. It just seems laughable that a complaint is made of something having an 'anti-white' attitude without acknowledging how present and insidious colonial attitudes are still around today.

arsefeatures · 01/03/2019 14:50

I agree we need to move away from the "aid" paradigm for Africa. Aid is necessary when there is a natural disaster. Otherwise it tends to perpetuate a client/master relationship, as well as putting money into the hands of the corrupt gov operatives, and criminal gangs who control access to the aid. I've seen this with my own eyes

That said: I think Lammy's comments were clumsy and disgraceful. Can we imagine a white MP judging the actions of a person by their skin colour ?

Making what is effectively a call for exclusion of a black woman ?

BertrandRussell · 01/03/2019 14:51

I’m not sure where the stereotyping comes in.....?

cheesydoesit · 01/03/2019 15:17

Aeroflotgirl what are you on about and why have you singled me out? You have been talking about hatred against white people and agreeing with Benjam's harmful stereotyping of Africa and the way is it portrayed by CR and now you have somehow accused me of using negative stereotypes? What harmful stereotypes have I used? Tell me please. I have disagreed with your use of the term 'anti-white' and explained my opinion but I haven't said that using stereotypes of perpetuating out dated narratives was a good thing, in fact I have said the opposite.

Aeroflotgirl · 01/03/2019 15:43

Wow cheesy steady on, I just disagreed with what you said in your post marked: 13:46. It seems that people are being jumped upon if they disagree with majority on this thread. I have also said that progression in developing countries and what what has been achieved should be highlighted, not just the negative aspects. I think that to encourage people to give to CR and other charities, the pertinent issues have to be emphasised. I also understand CR focuses on issues within the UK as well.

cheesydoesit · 01/03/2019 15:47

My post was quoting and agreeing with UbbesPonytail and didn't mention stereotypes. It was disagreeing with the use of a particular word.

KingHenrysCodpiece · 01/03/2019 15:47

BejamNostalgia Does have a point. I do find the term White Saviours with its emphasis on white which is about race, when the issue is supposedly that of western misrepresentation/self-aggrandizing/exploitation quite off-putting.

cheesydoesit · 01/03/2019 15:50

And I'm not 'jumping' on anyone disagreeing with the minority. You namechecked me for something I don't feel that I said so I asked you to elaborate.

cheesydoesit · 01/03/2019 15:50

*majority

cheesydoesit · 01/03/2019 15:56

Could it be explained that the distinction of using white rather than Western is because people even today will see a non white face and assume that they are not from a Western country despite them maybe having been born in one? And that a white person from a Western culture will have a very different worldview and experience than a non white person from a Western culture? Sorry if that doesn't make proper sense and it's not an imposed view, just my thoughts for discussion.

BertrandRussell · 01/03/2019 16:02

People with privilege do tend to get a bit antzy when said privilege is pointed out to them. It’s a recurring feature on Mumsnet and in real life too!

UbbesPonytail · 01/03/2019 16:11

The ‘white saviour’ has been used for decades in academic and political research. It’s RECOGNISED terminology, not just with regards African countries, but worldwide. My particular academic knowledge is actually in relation to Native Americans but the grounding theories stay the same and they ultimately all lead to the them/us divide, which suits us perfectly:

For instance, people seem to be under the illusion that the foreign aid the government give is done so with little thought; it always comes with conditions that ultimately benefit us back in Britain, even with the ‘corrupt’ ones (conveniently forgetting that the majority of organisations of power are corrupt, ours included - DUP anyone?) We tell them what they HAVE to do with it.

We send our broken electrical household goods and other waste to sit in landfills in African countries, literally taking lived-on land and turning it into slums, and then we give to charity to help those in a situation that we have culpability in because we don’t know ‘we’re’ the cause.

Comic Relief isn’t the problem BUT they can be part of a much bigger, better and brighter solution.

And still we sit here, indignant that someone might have the good sense to call out the fact that it’s time we stop assuming what other humans must need whilst simultaneously controlling what they are allowed to have. Because we’re right, and we can either see the privilege of white/western privilege or continue the ‘I can’t help who I am’ POV.

If you donate to CR, fabulous, you want to help! Wouldn’t you rather hear about the charities right there on the ground, doing the work in their own words?

As I said earlier, Lammy’s race is neither here nor there but seems to be confusing the dialogue considerably. Would the point be clearer if a white MP had made it?

BejamNostalgia · 01/03/2019 16:17

The ‘white saviour’ has been used for decades in academic and political research. It’s RECOGNISED terminology, not just with regards African countries, but worldwide

Sorry, that’s shite. Okay maybe at some of the worst American colleges that might be true, but generally people in Academia recognise that it’s a problematic term.

This whole thing is just the essence of bullshit identity politics. A white working class woman who has had the luck to get a bit of cash has raised concerns about poverty in Africa.

An elite millionaire ex barrister in the UK clicks his fingers and we’re no longer talking about poverty in Africa, we’re talking about how awful white people are.

Identity politics are the biggest game of global divide and conquer ever played.

storm11111 · 01/03/2019 16:33

Whilst Lammy may not like the stereotypes perpetuated by the type of promotional material filmed by comic relief and the like, my view is that you've got to be pragmatic.

First rule of fundraising:

You have to get people to care - this involves showing upsetting scenarios of suffering.

Now the argument here is that your perpetuating negative views of the country by showing stuff like this, however this is a essential part of fundraising no matter the country or race. It is not a targeted racial message to film suffering in order to purposely portray a certain group as victims but a tactic to get people to care.

Part 2 of getting people to care is utilising celebrities. Celebrities influence people to do all sorts of things, buy clothes, go on holidays, follow diets and DONATE MONEY. Comic relief uses celebrities of different races to get people to care and donate money. The issue here is that stacey is white and therefore fitting through no fault of her own a racially sensitive stereotype.

I agree with Lammy in the fact that the stereotypes perpetuated during this fundraising process are not ideal however I do not believe that it is part of a cynical propaganda narrative to try and perpetuate the 'white saviour' narrative but rather a cynical utilisation by the charity of every weapon in their arsenal to raise as much money as possible for their cause.

I think people are very open to listening to different suggestions for raising money for charity other than the current format but Lammy was shtum on any alternative suggestion!!!

KingHenrysCodpiece · 01/03/2019 16:39

it always comes with conditions that ultimately benefit us back in Britain

Surely that's the point. 'us back in Britain' are of all racial backgrounds not just 'white' so the problem is that of western exploitation/corruption. I as a black woman am inadvertantly contributing as much harm with my waste and even my ignorance as my white neighbour next door. But that is not the truthful image the term WS conveys. I can hear this term and I am mentally let off the hook, yay.

If a White politician said it would still not be any better. The terminology is unhelpful and exclusionary both for good and bad.

Aeroflotgirl · 01/03/2019 17:12

No Bertrand not antzy when negative and unhelpful stereotypes are identified. I agree with recent posters on here, finally some common sense. Just because a black person is born and raised in Britain, does not mean they will know what issues are faced by African's living in Africa, just because of the colour of their skin. I am partly Armenian, but have no idea of the issues faced by Armenians in Armenia, and the poverty or hardships of that country, maybe it is time to educate myself then!

BertrandRussell · 01/03/2019 17:15

“Just because a black person is born and raised in Britain, does not mean they will know what issues are faced by African's living in Africa”
Which is exactly the reason Lammy said it would not be appropriate for him to go!

BertrandRussell · 01/03/2019 17:18

“we’re talking about how awful white people are.“

We really really aren’t!

BertrandRussell · 01/03/2019 17:20

Is Lammy a millionaire, by the way?

Aeroflotgirl · 01/03/2019 17:38

The thing is help is needed, whoever gives it, but it must be appropriate and what is needed for the people it is meant to be targeted at. I disagree with Stacey Dooley, she should have been much more dignified and discreet about it, not putting it out there on Insta, it was not appropriate! The good that has come from this, is that it is bringing it out in the forefront, and maybe the help that is given will be the right help that their target community needs.

Aeroflotgirl · 01/03/2019 17:40

Similar happened when Meghan Markle wrote those messages on bananas for sex workers in Bristol, helping volunteers pack lunches for them.