To think if the Scandinavians charge to see a GP maybe we should too?

[Pickleup]

We’ve just spent twelve days in a Scandinavian country, during which time my DC and I fell ill and we had to get medical help.

We went to the local state-run health centre, took a ticket from a machine (like a deli counter) and waited our turn for an emergency appointment (Ie one where you haven’t booked). They run these emergency sessions 7 days a week!

We saw lovely GPs in an impeccably clean surgery. One of them said I needed a blood test and I was expecting to have to come back another day but she took us over the hall and did it herself with a thumb prick - then they tested the blood in their own lab there and then and told me I was good to go. The whole thing took maybe seven minutes.

On your way out you pay at a machine - it was just under £10 to see the doctor, and £5 for the blood test. Children under 16 are totally free.
No charge for doctors certificates.

We had to make a follow up appointment on our way out and there was reasonable availability - we chose something three days later.

Compare to the our GP surgery...at home in the UK, there is currently a ten day wait for ANY appointment with a GP. If you want a specific GP it is 14 days. There are no emergency appointments at all now. Blood tests - you are talking a week wait for results, minimum.

Isn’t it time we started levying a small charge for the vast majority of adults who could pay?

I have a long-term health condition, which requires me to take 22 tablets - 8 different drugs - per day. I’ve just had my third major surgery in 5 years. I have physio twice per month. I have a number of mobility aids at home. I have the support of my GP in all of this.
Because I’m in Scotland, I pay not one extra penny - other than my standard higher Scottish tax rate - and I’m incredibly thankful. This would have bankrupted me, if we lived somewhere where you have to pay; I can’t get a private health provider to touch me, even if I wanted it. My surgery last week would have cost me around £45k.
I absolutely agree that only those who almost never fall ill, wish to have additional payments. What I do agree is that we should have better, fully funded Nhs facilities.

@CiarCel

Yes sorry, I shouldn't have said that. It's a very emotive topic for me so perhaps it would be wiser for me to step back and have a cup of tea instead of insulting strangers on the internet. Apologies, it's normally not my style.

I absolutely agree that only those who almost never fall ill, wish to have additional payments

The "bubble" I'm living in is one where I have a chronic condition that has seen me have 3 operations so far, another one due fairly soon and plenty of medication and over 100 sessions of physio. I am also now on the equivalent of full-time minimum wage but was on less than minimum wage when it first started and have had to have periods when I couldn't work. I am self-employed.

How are you going to have better, fully funded NHS facilities? The UK clearly needs to move to private providers as Europe has (remember, this is not the American system - private providers still give free or - in the instances something is not free - very cheap service to "the customer" but the providers are not state run as the NHS is). It will not happen without that sort of reform but the UK will not let go of it's "Save our NHS", "Hands off our NHS" "Heart emoji NHS" mentality and the idea that anyone who sees the benefit of other systems is a rich Tory living in a Blue bubble.

Thank you Shart. My father died of a heart attack and I do appreciate that you are feeling very upset. I wish him and the rest of your family the best of luck.

Pickleup

A thumb prick by the GP themselves is not going to provide enough blood for anything thorough such as a full blood count or ESR.

It could be quickly used to test, say, blood sugar levels but not sure the volume would be enough for a proper health review.

"But why would you say that when that is not how it works in other countries that have these systems?" Because we still have the issue of dismissive, sexist gp's and that's reinforced by incentives NOT to refer patients to specialists. Unless those issues are addressed this would add to the difficulties for patients in getting a DX.

Squeezysparklyballs you're right tory govts don't like funding the Nhs, but not because the money isn't available, they prefer ideologically to spend it elsewhere.

"I wonder how many people there are in the UK who can afford hair extensions, nail things (falsies), ciggys and betting on a regular basis but who couldn't find money for a GP consultation?" Oh ffs! Don't fall for such nonsense!

"You think the rest of Europe have these systems in place as a population cull?" No we UNDERSTAND that with our tory govt there wouldn't be the other regulations and systems that are in place in other countries to protect the most vulnerable. We've ALREADY got people dying as a result of this govts policies I really really wouldn't trust this govt with this policy AT ALL.

And yes it really was a disgusting thing to say.

"More public funding is not an option." Says who?

"but only if the service improves dramatically and there are assurances that it won't all be trousered by the GP's themselves." This is why I'm against it, I don't trust that the service would improve or that GP's wouldn't simply pocket the profit.

I haven’t RTFT.

I used to live in NZ where we had to pay and I avoided going.

Saying people see the issue as black and white is a DISGUSTING thing to say? Really? You really think my posts are disgusting but no one else's deserve to mentioned in that category... well that seems reasonable...

I understand Shart's is currently feeling very upset but you feel the need to go back to it and push it when it had been moved on from?

Why are you banging on about the current Tory government? Why are you not asking why the opposition will not push for european style reform where countries have better healthcare than the NHS?

You will not budge an inch on this to see the grey in between. You say "no one has answered my questions on this" - what happens if you can't pay in other countries because you are unable to work - and so I answer your question on it with actual quotation from the French government website and you ignore it because it doesn't suit your narrative.

Pointless.

As Bundy says: Another one here who longs for the European social insurance system. I will never understand the fixation on the NHS as the only "fair" way. It isn't (and if it was, then one might expect the model to be more common, rather than just us and Cuba!)

The experience of actually needing to use NHS services has - paradoxically - convinced me that the current system does not work

YABU

it would undoubtedly cost lives with people who have concerns but because of financial difficulties choose not to act on concerns until it becomes critical.

@Graphista

"More public funding is not an option." Says who?

The electorate. They keep voting for the Tories.

My point was that Norwegians (and Swedes) have much higher taxes than us AND levy (low) charges for some basic medical services AND have better health outcomes AND better patient satisfaction.

This suggests to me that perhaps the NHS system is not all that great and perhaps there might be bette solutions than simply throwing yet more money from general taxation into a black hole (as happened with GP contracts under Blair).

@ShartGoblin My DH had a heart attack in 2006 but we didnt lose our flat because of it. It shows how quickly things have deteriated in such a short space of time.

hope he and the circumstances are better soon

When the changes to Pension Credit come in it will put even more pressure on services.

Voting Tory doesn't necessarily mean voting against extra funding for Nhs plus not everyone votes Tory - they scraped in at last GE and I believe if one more MP leaves they've lost their current "majority" ?

Yes I do believe in the Nhs and I believe it is being undermined by those with an agenda for getting rid of it.

I'm not patently opposed to European systems BUT for us to move to European systems the other infrastructure around it AND the current GP system needs to be overhauled first, because yes I believe otherwise moving to even a nominal payment for GP visits would - and very quickly - cost lives.

Plus our current govt and the politicians pushing for alternative health systems aren't really looking to European systems anyway, they're looking to the American system with a view to making already rich people even richer and stuff the poor!

@Graphista

Voting Tory doesn't necessarily mean voting against extra funding for Nhs

It means voting for low taxes and low public spending. That's the entire point of the Tory party- the party of small government. Like it or not, they were democratically elected so the public clearly does not want to fund the NHS from public funds. the logical conclusion is to start charging for it.

I don't vote Tory, btw.

It gets us into the realms of why people vote for who they do. It's not always logical.

There's a lot of people vote for whoever because that's who their parents always voted for or because they think it makes them a different social class, or because they've believed any number of long dispelled myths, or because they just would never vote for the "other" party...

Not everyone votes for who they do based on actual policies and actions.

I've spoken to people who always vote X party yet talking to them, they fundamentally don't hold the same views of that party on major, key issues. Really odd.

The heaviest users of the NHS are babies and small children, pensioners and people with long term health conditions. These are precisely the people that are least likely to have to pay charges under a pay GP system.
The people who would be charged are also those likely to be light users of the service. I doubt the money raised would be worth the cost of collecting it

See, people are saying that £10 is not a lot and we could probably pay it right now.

But when DS was a newborn I developed PND and I was prescribed ADs, they were great and they worked really well... When I could afford the £8 charge, which wasn't all the time. So I'd be using them for a month, then a gap of a couple of weeks, then back on etc. They're not meds you should be doing this with and the constant breaks meant I was hit by the physical side affects every time I restarted them which I found pretty hard to deal with due to my mental state...

We were just over the threshold for most benefits and only got some tax credits which went on food and DP's bus ticket. In theory, my travel fees should've been included, but we simply couldn't afford them so I was stuck in as there was nothing to do in the area either.

But yeah, it's just £10.

How are you going to have better, fully funded NHS facilities? The UK clearly needs to move to private providers as Europe has (remember, this is not the American system - private providers still give free or - in the instances something is not free - very cheap service to "the customer" but the providers are not state run as the NHS is)

I live in the Netherlands one of those EU countries that have semi-private providers. The system didn’t stop the increase in medical care costs, so much so that every bloody year there are changes which means that my basic policy exclude services and treatment.

The big news of last year was a hospital going bankrupt and the farcical situation of high risk patients being moved because insurance companies were no longer prepared to pay for the treatments of their customers.

No there isn’t the price gauging and free for all that there is in the US but there are practices which are very close. I have to pay by law the first 385 euros of treatment in a year (on top of my monthly premiums). When I have a referral to a specialist I have to get permission from my insurance provider because they might have a contact with another provider. Do not get me started on being harassed by my insurance company to assist them in recovery the costs of my DD’s ambulance journey after being in a car accident.

Of course this didn’t all happen at once, it’s been a slow slide. The 385 euro own risk hot potato is the subject of an increase every year. There’s no guarantee that that 10 Euros, will stay 10 euros.

The truth is my insurance company has a lot of influence over my medical care and they aren’t a charity, which means their shareholders are part of my healthcare provision equation.

The danger in these type of threads is that you base an entire system off the back of a small experience.

Well I certainly admit my experience of The Netherlands is relatively small as I did not live there for very long and it was a long time ago but my experience elsewhere is over 15 years full-time resident and 3 operations for a chronic condition over and beyond your bog standard illnesses. My French friend has now been living in Germany on a minimum ish wage self-employed income for 8 years and is delighted with the system there. Ditto friends in Belgium and Australia. Of course, as I have repeatedly said, no system is perfect - such a system simply does not exist - and there are always things to complain and campaign about. But - unlike UK friends in the US/US friends in the UK - none who have proper experience of the NHS and proper experience of these alternative systems would ever swap despite their complaints.

It is no skin off my nose in many ways - I do not intend to return to the UK anytime soon. But I see a friend with the same condition in the UK has had to take - she is wealthier than me for sure but still could not afford private care in the UK and so has had to have an inferior (slower, initially fobbed off with cheaper and less effective solutions, lack of communication etc etc) treatment path with a worse outcome and it seems madness that she had no option at all. The majority of the electorate do not want to "throw more money" at the NHS as it exists in its current form because they know it will not translate into benefits for patients, for whom there is simply no choice or control whatsoever.