To think if the Scandinavians charge to see a GP maybe we should too?

[Pickleup]

We’ve just spent twelve days in a Scandinavian country, during which time my DC and I fell ill and we had to get medical help.

We went to the local state-run health centre, took a ticket from a machine (like a deli counter) and waited our turn for an emergency appointment (Ie one where you haven’t booked). They run these emergency sessions 7 days a week!

We saw lovely GPs in an impeccably clean surgery. One of them said I needed a blood test and I was expecting to have to come back another day but she took us over the hall and did it herself with a thumb prick - then they tested the blood in their own lab there and then and told me I was good to go. The whole thing took maybe seven minutes.

On your way out you pay at a machine - it was just under £10 to see the doctor, and £5 for the blood test. Children under 16 are totally free.
No charge for doctors certificates.

We had to make a follow up appointment on our way out and there was reasonable availability - we chose something three days later.

Compare to the our GP surgery...at home in the UK, there is currently a ten day wait for ANY appointment with a GP. If you want a specific GP it is 14 days. There are no emergency appointments at all now. Blood tests - you are talking a week wait for results, minimum.

Isn’t it time we started levying a small charge for the vast majority of adults who could pay?

The GPs have lunch!
....hahahaha-crying laughing

@youmadorwhat I'm in England so can't talk for anywhere else.
We don't close at lunchtime but I don't have any patients booked from 12-3. In that time I review and sign repeat scripts and acute script requests, respond to telephone messages, complete referrals and letters from the morning clinic, review blood results and read and action letters from clinics etc. To the tune of several hundred paperwork items. Oh, and do any home visits. So I do eat lunch during this time but I don't have a lunch 'break'. And I finish what's left over in 2-3 hours over my contracted after my surgery finishes.
I'm not being a martyr about it or even really complaining. It's just reality. I worked hard to get there but am paid pretty well. Friends in similarly responsible jobs work similar hours and have lunch 'al desko' too. But I think people don't always understand the realities of a GP's workday.
A lot of it is actually really boring too - but if I tune out on the 159th blood result it can have serious consequences.
I'm considering leaving my surgery to do urgent care or an a&e job - seeing patients is the bit most of us enjoy, it's the admin and buck passing that gets me down, sometimes every day feels like a slog by the end.

@Fortybingowings are you a gp in Ireland?? Can you clarify my query as to whether they have lunch at that time too? I know the secretaries do so I assumed they might too??!! There’s a lot that is different over here, I’m a teacher for example and I work from 9-2.40 and I get uninterrupted breaks as does the rest of the staff (we don’t work through our breaks like they seem to do in the uk) and I am home with my DC by half 3. So, it’s very different, but then again I just realized that if you are Irish you would know this about school times!😂

@FrowningFlamingo thank you for that info 👍 I assume in my head the GPS here are eating at their desks too but albeit at a certain time? I dunno I could be completely wrong.😂

Mainland UK.
GP lunch is usually shoved in my mouth while on the phone, looking through blood test results or letters, or alternatively eaten in car while going between home visits.

@Graphista Only just saw your question. I discussed it with some hospital doctors. There seems to general awareness in secondary care that it is happening. I first noticed it myself because of ongoing problems DSis has had and also a friend's (shocking) experience.

^What I've yet to have answered to my satisfaction that I've asked on numerous threads (and I understand posters may not know immediately as if you're living as an expat rather than a full emigree you're far more likely to be a worker) is - ok you say the system in X country works well for you, your family and for low paid workers.

How well does it work for people who can't work? Especially the sick/disabled who are also going to be the main users?^

In the system I am talking about these people receive the equivalent of a living wage.

Those people in Norway either do not pay at all, or pay the minimum @CiarCiel it is a socialist system designed to support and aid everyone.

That said, it does have it's flaws. I have had friends in need of mental health help been chewed up and spat out by this system - 3 or 4 months of group therapy that's really working and then .. ok you're out and start the whole thing over with your gp. It's not perfect, but for physical health at least it works very well. I can see a gp the very same day if I need to, I usually wait 2-3 weeks for a non emergency appointment. My kids never wait more than a week for non emergency and have yet to wait more than 2 hours for a same day emergency. I pay about 150NOK to see my go (remember salary is higher here too so it is not as painful an amount as 15gbp would be), my kids pay nothing, I paid nothing whole pregnant and during post partum appointments.

My minimum wage friend pays nothing to see her gp, she is chronically unwell and poor and as such has it covered by the state.

All that would happen is people would wait longer to seek help and be sicker. Hospital admissions would increase.

I can always get an appointment within 3 days in my surgery. I know that isn't the case everywhere, though.

I agree OP. People are obsessed with it being free at the point of use. This worked well when it was set up when people weren't obese, living til 100 with no family support, stressed and sedentary, and didn't go to the doctor with a sore throat or a scratch.

The system isn't working and needs to change before we lose it altogether.

Most people would rather pay a fiver and see a doctor when they needed than get a free at point of use doctor 2 weeks later.

It would put off timewasters

People in the UK are less inclined to vote for parties who put up tax to adequately fund public services so funding it adequately through increased taxation is ulikely

Other countries fund it by making people that can, pay for part of it. They have better health outcomes than the UK so I can't see that the whole 'it puts people off going to see a doctor and they get worse' argument holds water. You just need to make sure that it only applies to people who can pay and doesn't penalise people who have chronic conditions etc

Colehawlins well based on my own experience it's been happening for at least 32 years!

Ciarcel are you saying that French residents too ill to work get equivalent to living wage? I'm not sure that's entirely accurate, I've just googled and there seems to be a lot of disclaimers in particular that mental illness isn't properly recognised. Also they seem to have their own version of ATOS and I don't even want to think what a "disabled persons work centre" is!

AmIright - under the current system with people fighting for years to even get a referral to a specialist before they can get a DX and therefore no proof of a chronic condition I would not trust that those most in need would be treated right.

Yes. My own feeling is that time-honoured misogyny multiplied by fundholding equals serious danger.

Yep! And it's not just the male Drs that are misogynistic in their treatment of patients!

Patients are STILL being described as "neurotic" and "hysterical" in THEIR OFFICIAL NOTES! In the 21st century!

It's appalling!

I am in Ireland to. G.P visit is 60€.
You can claim 20% of this back at the end of every year though.

GP definitely definitely has an hour for lunch, all the GPs i know do this and the Secretaries do too.

Graphista - even not taking into account disability, for those who are just "sans activité" from the government website:

Depuis le 1er avril 2018, le montant du RSA est de :

550,90 euros par mois pour une personne seule
818,22 euros pour un couple avec aucun enfant
981,86 euros pour un couple avec un enfant
1 145,25 euros pour un couple avec deux enfants
Par enfant supplémentaire, la majoration est de 214,71 euros pour un couple, de 229,76 euros pour un parent isolé

L'allocation logement est accordée en fonction des ressources, -sans prendre en compte le RSA.

Ainsi, si vous n'avez aucune ressource, en dehors du RSA, ou des ressources très limitées, vous bénéficiez des allocations logement à taux plein.

This is not including all the other reductions and benefits

In any case...

Une personne majeure sans activité professionnelle a droit à la prise en charge de ses frais de santé à titre personnel, dès lors qu'elle réside en France de manière stable et régulière

stefoscope, you do realise that private healthcare in the U.K. doesn't cover accidents or emergencies? If you have a heart attack or are involved in a road traffic accident, it won't be a private hospital you're taken to.

Private insurance to cover non urgent conditions, is another matter.

I've posted here before about the Swedish system a Swedish friend described - small charges for everything inc. prescriptions, for most people, with an annual cap.

It does make sense, but no government here will ever have the guts to introduce it - 'free at the point of use' is such a sacred cow.

My sister in the US used to pay about $800 a month for herself and her daughter, so when she cut a finger very badly, I was naive enough to say, 'Well, at least you were covered,'.

She said, 'You're joking - there was a $2000 excess.'

I know the NHS isn't perfect, but I still think we're relatively lucky - and some people do abuse it.

For a start I'd like to see hefty charges for people who end up in A&E purely because they're drunk and incapable.

Well my friend always says there should be a drunk tank at the hospital a and e for people to sleep it off before they get treatment so they are not taking up beds. Like a load of matresses and thats it.
I dont think that could work though?

I think really we pay far too much in ireland, private health insurace €2000 per year and gp and dentist €60 per visit. Consultant for anything €200 per visit. Having a baby privately, even with all of the above is another €3500.
Its such a huge amount, but at least we can see a doctor quickly and dont feel guilt about going to the doctor, and they prescribe whatever we need because we are paying for prescription too.
There must be a middle ground option somewhere. I dont think we will solve it here.

Blood tests in three days, within twenty four hours for some of my maternity tests, surgery open seven days a week, including until 8 pm three nights, daily appointments for urgent things and online booking usually for the next day and sometimes same day for non urgent, longest I've waited is three days for an appointment , I live in a large town so It's not that there aren't many people to see. You need to change gp.

Private gp appts are £50 or so, for it to be 10 must be heavily subsidised

I do think there should be fines for repeat missed appointments. My GP has a sign up to say in January this year there were 119 booked and missed without cancellation appointments, the nurse I saw for DSs vaccinations said it's really frustrating and often the same people who do it, some call and book an emergency same day appointment and then just don't show up!

DH and I both work full time and we can barely afford any extras each month. We run out of money by just over half way through and spend the rest of the month slowly spending on my cc. It's a debt we will never get out of unless we happen upon a few thousand ££. I can't afford prescriptions so I don't get any. Fortunately we don't need anything but when we do we manage with pharmacy own brand pain killers etc. I just wouldnt go to the GP if I had to pay unless I had no choice.

It took several appointments to get my dad diagnosed with Dimentia/neurological condition, some were missed. Not for want of trying. He’d forget, or think they were on a different day/time, or just decide not to go. I had to literally hijack him in the street one day and take him to the GP for an emergency appointment when his face fell on one side. It’s not time wasting, it’s a symptom of his condition. Add to the mix now charges for missed appointments, how difficult do you want it to be? Dementia sufferers will miss appointments, will turn up when they haven’t booked one. It’s a symptom that shouldn’t be penalised for.

Also if you charge people will avoid going to the GP with one problem, but “save up” several conditions for one visit, impacting on time. Not to say these conditions aren’t difficult or impacting on their lives. There is so much hype around people going to the GP for minor ailments, in reality many wait it out because they don’t want to be seen as a burden or are embarrassed. The extra cost will just be another barrier to them.

Poor people are generally sicker, chronically poor and chronically sick go hand in hand. Just look at the life expectancies for poor vs rich areas in the country. And our history. And for many of the most vulnerable a GP is the first port of call for help. Please don’t charge for that!

You guys don't seem to be reading properly. Dementia sufferers would not pay for appointments as they would be classed as chronically ill.

People who do not have enough money go get through the month would not pay for appointments as they would be classed as low income.

The only people who pay for appointments are those who can afford it and are not having treatment for long term illness.

Here in Ireland any time charges are introduced for a service it doesn't take long before the prices increase big time.

There was a booming business here where a lot of people with medical cards would go to their GP and get all sorts of over the counter medications on prescription because they were free then they'd sell them or pass them on to family and friends. Once a nominal charge of 50c per item was introduced and even more so since it's increased the fee the number of people doing this has plummeted and there has been a huge saving in the national medical bill.

I visited a walk in doctor in non EU country, diagnosis, antibiotics £40. I had the money to pay and the treatment worked. Not everyone has £40 !

Shouldn’t charge for appointments, that’s what taxes are for.
Should charge if people don’t turn up for appointments though.