To remove DDs phone altogether?

[HelenLaBloodyAnnoyed]

DD turned 11 in January, her dad and I are separated and he bought her an iPhone for her birthday. She previously had a normal phone to use if she wanted to contact him (which I supplied) but neither of them ever contacted one another.

The iPhone is the only thing she's ever been allowed to bring home with her, and it was sent home with her without any consultation with me. Since having it, her attitude has worsened a great deal. She will only use it in her room and is constantly charging and checking it. I caught her trying to sneak it into bed a few weeks ago and she absolutely lost the plot when I said it could stay at her dad's house if it's going to continue to cause her to be dishonest and have a bad attitude.

I check it regularly and the messages are fairly mundane. However, her dad has helped her to download TikTok, Watsapp and BBC iPlayer - all of which I think are absolutely inappropriate for her age. What's worse is that DD is well aware they're inappropriate (thanks to internet safety week at school and us talking) and she's made a big deal of saying she doesn't understand why underage people are so desperate for them. Therefore she's lying by omission, in my opinion.

This evening she asked if she could meet a friend from school at the local park. It's a 5 min walk from our house and I was heading there with her siblings to walk the dog a while later so I said yes on the condition she messages me when she arrived safely and only goes to the park. We ended up going sooner than expected as the washing machine repair man was delayed indefinitely and when we arrived there was no sign of DD, despite her having messaged me to say she arrived safely. Half an hour later I saw her and her friend approach the entrance, when they saw us they ran into a bush (!) and tried to sneak it through it so they could pretend they'd been there the whole time.

When I challenged DD about where they'd been, she said her friend needed a wee so they went to McDonald's, then blurted out that her friend had had an ice cream but she hadn't had anything, then looked in a panic at her phone as presumably there's an incriminating photo on there! McDonald's is only a few mins from the park but it's across two tricky roads, and she didn't have permission to go there.

I honestly feel like saying she can leave the phone at her dad's house next time she goes as all it has lead to is dishonesty. Similarly, I feel she's spoiled her opportunity to be independent and go out with a friend as she's been dishonest there too. AIBU to say the phone is not welcome in my house anymore?

He has said she doesn't need controls so I'm going to be the bad guy whatever happens

What are his reasons? you need to learn to co-parent with each other. You can’t fully have your was but he can’t have fully have this it is important you try and reach a compromise

Nope not us
And the prize for smuggest comment of the week goes to...

Ok the lying - yeah I get that.
I think perhaps the best approach is to try to show her your treating her 'like a grown up' by sitting her down and explaining these things to her. Every kid wants to feel like they're grown up so it might just make her think harder?

Cheers muddy

I think you are getting a bashing here for no good reason OP. Take the phone off her, she doesn't actually need it, give her the one she had that isn't smart and be done with it. It's a slippery slope if you don't.

Tiktok most certainly has to go, it’s currently been on the national news and I’ve deleted it from all my childrens phones.

Download appt 360, for her whereabouts, you get her exact location as to where she’s been (it was tell you where she is within 2 feet)

My children are 9 and 13 I check their phones daily, it’s not about us not trusting them (I do) it’s about us keeping our children safe!

So many parents out there have no idea that there children have issues, however if they had looked at their children’s phones they may have seen/noticed that their children were being bullied, sucidal , eating discorders , meeting “strangers” etc...

Op you can take the phone off her. It’s your right, but obviously her dad will play on this.
You can let her keep it and link it to your own phone, put restrictions on apps (ie she still needs your permission before the phone will download anything)
You could ask for the password, check it regularly, and make it stay downstairs at night.
You could talk to her dad again about it - does he really think she needs no restrictions if that includes predatory males having access to her, or her accessing inappropriate videos etc?
But you need to do something

Checking her messages will make her feel as if you don't trust her. All you can do is educate her

This is really stupid, dangerous advice. She needs to give you access to any device whenever you want it. 11 year olds are st huge risk on the internet from all manner of nasties.

I’m the DSLO at my school and some of the stuff that children come into contact with us very, very damaging. It can also lead to situations that children are not equipped to deal with.

We go with the nspcc advice - be present (internet access only when in the same room as a parent/carer), pre empt by talking about potential dangers and ensuring they know what to do, spot checks on phones with no notice.

You’re not being over protective OP. You’re helping keep your daughter safe.

Would her dad take nspcc leaflet advice, if he won’t take it from you?

Well personally I think smartphones for under 16s should be banned. A basic phone to text and phone is fine.

Just change the WiFi number. Job sorted. She can have the iPhone but no internet access.

I'm not convinced you have spoken with her dad and if you have I suspect you went steaming in something like "why the hell did you get her that?! It's so irresponsible I'm taking it off her" etc

Which I can understand why, I think most separated parents have reacted in a less than constructive way to parenting issues when communicating with their exes, all the history kicks in, I've done it myself on occasion... but honestly I find it hard to believe a caring father has no clue of the potential risks of unrestricted access to such a device, and wouldn't be at all willing to have a constructive conversation about how you manage it together.

When I've done it I've calmed down, apologised to ex and we've sorted things out calmly. He's done same mostly, as in he's had his moments too where he's kicked off at me as a gut reaction to something, then later calmed down, apologised and talked with me to find a solution.

Sometimes it's a case of finding the right timing/approach.

"Would her dad take nspcc leaflet advice, if he won’t take it from you?" Good suggestion.

My ex is/was the opposite, infantilising dd and not letting her do stuff she was plenty old enough for (unless it suited him). So I had to get him thinking what he was doing at X age, his mum helped with this too.

Cauliflowersqueeze you do know wifi isn't essential for access to Internet? Most phone packages include a data allowance.

You sound controlling, uninformed and petty. Did her father dump you for someone else, and is this the source of your resentment and desperate need to micromanage, by any chance?

SGB

That’s an odd comment.

I agree with so many of the previous posters and they're giving you solid advice OP, I'm about to throw another POV into the mix.

OH's ex wife has the majority of the time with his 2 children, a few years ago she procured a smart phone for our 13 year old step daughter.

Straight away she played the technophobe card.

Instantly my SD started posting some very age inappropriate content on Instagram with no privacy on her account and had a following of 1500 "randoms " that she gathered through scraping apps. It's a popularity contest and she who is allowed to be daring gets the kudos in their world.

OH hit the roof and tried to table a conversation with SD's mum who shrugged her shoulders and said "if you know so much, you sort it out."

He tried to talk to DSD about safeguarding online and had her mum using every opportunity to paint OH as the bad guy.

There then ensued a parental alienation contest with OH being the bad guy for trying to safeguard his daughter. DSD picked up on the opportunity to play both parents off each other and get everything she wanted. OH wanted to safeguard her? No chance, DSD withdrew contact. OH wanted to speak to his ex wife? No chance, she used it as ammo. "Your dad is a bully, if you say Instagram and snapchat are safe I trust you. She didn't even monitor her accounts or phone but we did. It was heartbreaking.

It's been a very tough 5 years with neither parent actually being in control and now our very intelligent, bright, amazing DSD has a massive ego and sense of entitlement. It's up to you. Do the right thing by forcing him into a room to discuss it face to face or continue to post on mumsnet. I assume you're the resident parent so you should have the majority voice.

I don't know why you're getting a hard time about this OP, I agree with you. If you can't co-parent (and again, I don't know why you're getting a hard time about that - it's seen often enough on these boards!) then I think you need to have a talk with her. Set some firm boundaries around what she can have on her phone and when she's allowed it. If she continues to break your trust, then there will be consequences she probably won't like.

Allow her a little more freedom when she's out on the proviso she's honest and calls/texts you at appropriate times.

Adeline if she'd messaged to ask so I knew where she was, that would've been fine. The fact she lied and went elsewhere on her first trip out with a friend shows me she isn't mature enough to be trusted.

Graphista I'm glad you're able to sort things with your ex. Unfortunately mine (who was abusive in every way meaning DD and I had to flee to a hostel under police protection - I am certainly not bitter after being dumped Reanimated!!) gives me a one word or sentence response to emails or messages (usually the standard 'she's my daughter, don't tell me what to do') and hangs up if I call. Not much room for negotiation or cooperation.

I'm sorry you have had and are still having such bad experiences with your ex. But have you taken anything that has been said here on board?

In the end you posted because you have a problem and wanted some advice on how to fix it.

That's absolutely understandable if there's been abuse which is why I put that proviso in.

He can't stop you from confiscating the phone while she's with you. Even if he gives it "I paid for it" you can give it to him but that doesn't mean you have to let dd have it. Or putting settings on it that don't require the owners permissions.

As I said in an earlier post (and I'm no expert on this, a legal expert or possibly nspcc might be able to advise) it might be useful to get something legal put in place that allows you to set the phone up in a safe way that he can't intervene with?

Unfortunately the law is slow in developing alongside the extremely fast moving tech world.

Personally I would love to see much tighter legislation on app sales to under 18's in terms of penalties for the sellers, and on provision of certain tech to under 18's. Too many parents are unaware or apathetic towards the risks.

But again, the sneaking off to McDonald's could've happened without the phone and needs dealing with separately. As does the general boundary pushing and lying. These are neither modern nor phone issues these are normal adolescence issues.

I've managed to get dd to 18 relatively unscathed so far (don't wanna jinx myself) but man the teen years are hard! You're at the start of it, you need to start as you mean to go on.

Mixed messages are not helpful, being strict where she goes but not monitoring her online presence is a mixed message.

Kids are buggers for exploiting loopholes! You need to be a bloody lawyer to negotiate with them! But you also need to have in your own mind your red lines. Everyone's are different.

Mine included no lying (that included by omission), no secrets, most things can be dealt with to the general satisfaction of all if everyone has all the facts and nobody's in the dark.

Accepting the word "no" without argument (recent discussion with dd she said a friend who's not known her long - a few years just - had noticed I never said no to dd. Dd & her best friend she's known ages and Knows me well too, pointed out to her that by the age this friend met her she'd already had enough "no" answers to know which questions not to ask. She also knew when it got to point of me saying "no" to a thing that was my final answer and it was non negotiable. There were few things that were an instant "no" and they were usually if not mostly for her safety. This means that they were mostly when she was younger too.

Always being polite and respectful to older relatives. Dd and I have had our moments as happens in most families during teen years, but I would never have tolerated her being at all rude or even grumpy or sulky around certain relatives who've been incredibly good to us (sadly we've lost a few and its hit her hard).

Boundaries is a word mentioned a lot on mn especially in relation to parenting especially adolescents/teens. There's good reason for that, you need to know really before tempers fray, where your hard boundaries are.

It sounds like you've a decision to make on that score. Not easy but necessary.

WhatsApp is literally no different to text messages

It's very different. We have no end of trouble with Wattsap at school with our year 7 and 8s. They set up group chats. Ones for the whole year group which rapidly escalate out of control as they forget who's reading, forget that they aren't just words on a screen that they're typing and end up hurting each other. Ones for smaller groups eg a friendship group who start a chat for all bar one of the group so that they can talk about that one person behind their back. They forget who's in which group and who knows what about who. They leave other at the end of each school day and spend most of the evening messaging and getting themselves worked up and overtired about anything and everything. They fall out and go to bed upset then bring their issues into school the next day to play out in real life too. We've had girls sending topless pictures of themselves to groups of boys. We've had boys arranging secret meet ups during the school day with different girls. We've had children sharing hugely personal and controversial information on chats with 30+ other children on them because they weren't thinking.

It's 16+ for a reason. Younger teens cannot and do not have the maturity or self awareness to allow adults to be confident that they can use it safely and appropriately. We are now in the process of strongly advising parents to remove wattsapp and other social media platforms from their children.

11 is far too young for a smartphone anyway. YANBU.

But you can set up group chats in any of the messaging apps - even texts. WhatsApp is just easier

Iggly

I don't know what you mean when you say WhatsApp is more live than text messages.

I don't believe the messages sent are any faster than normal text messages. However, WhatsApp is an encrypted form of message.

My understanding is that the encryption is super safe in that there is no back door built into the programming of them that enables them to be de-encrypted. This may or may not be a bad thing depending on who you are.

Terrorists and perverts probably love it.

Her naivety is why she needs to grow up, she’s going to go to a big high school very soon.

However I would remove TikTok as the video she’s posted is not appropriate regardless of how innocent it actually is and tiktok is at least over 13. If Dad objects tell him you will report to social services and take him to court.

What’s app is how kids communicate now but you need to be checking her phone 2x daily morning and night.

The world has changed and it’s our job as parents to adapt and teach our children how to navigate it trying to pretend it’s a 1950’s Enid Blyton utopia will not cut it.

I don't think going from believing in fairies to exposing her to anything she can find on the internet is the way to help her prepare for the world. Surely there's a middle ground - I.e. parental controls?

Iplayer has parental controls and I doubt an 11 year old would want to watch Luther , she’ll probably just want to watch CBBC. WhatsApp is also fine since you can only contact your actual contacts on there, strangers can’t randomly contact you. It’s literally the same as texting only useful because you can send free photos. You can also monitor it to ensure she isn’t sending or receiving anything inappropriate. Unsure about tiktok, I have only seen a few things but all were fairly mundane and benign. So I honestly wouldn’t get het up about any of those apps. You can also password protect App Store so she can’t download any apps without running it past you first.

The only thing that would concern me is the mood change since she has had it. I would remove it if you think it’s having an adverse effect. I honestly don’t think an 11 year old needs a smart phone.

Take away her iPhone-smart phones are so addictive and an 11yr old does not need one. But do allow her a bit more freedom. What's wrong with her going for ice cream with her friend? She's 11 so really should have learned to cross a road safely by now!

I don't know what you mean when you say WhatsApp is more live than text messages

I mean it feels more like instant chat than text messages.