Working late. Is it the norm now ? How sad.

[Oblomov]

I posted on two threads yesterday about dh's who work later than their contracted hours.
Barney2 's dh works "(7am) and not home until late (gone 7pm" - so thats a 12 hr day then. And he always says yes to another extra job, if asked. Fillyfonk said "the company won't go into liquidation", if he says no. I agree with Fillyfonk.
Rabsters dh works "9 - 5.30, yet he seems to work 8.30 - 6 most days" so thats an extra hour every day.7 hours a week. A DAY A WEEK. That he does. FOR NOTHING.
Cod said "stop naggin". McDreamy,heifer, HonoriaGlossop, all basically / pretty much said that it was the norm thesedays.
And everyone is saying, this is the norm. REALLY ?
What I am asking, is not what time your dh gets home. Because everyone's is different, they work different hours, have diffrerent length commutes.
I am asking why people think it is o.k. to regularly do more than your contracted hours. I.e do an extra DAY for free, every week.
Last week, there was a post about a lady who had been made redundant, after giving so much. Aloha posted that "But I say never, ever consider yourself as working for anyone else, whether you work full time or part time, always put yourself and your own interests above those of your company. Because you can bet that the company will NEVER put your interests above their financial ones." I agree with her.
No company gives a sh*t about any employee. So if Aloha's argument is right ( and I beleive it is), why give ONE day PER WEEK, extra, for nothing.
If you think that this is the norm these days, for people to do extra hours, I think it is VERY SAD.
My dh has a new job as an Operations Manager. He doesn't take a full lunch. He regularly gives extra 1/2, 3/4 , 1 and 1/2 hrs extra. His men get paid overtime. But he doesn't. He says it is expected. I think, he thinks, that I am naieve. I am not naieve, I know people do it. I just think, that the work / life balance has become totally out-of-proportion. And I think its WRONG.
Maybe its just me, then ?

does not have caring duties any more...

Harpsi - totally agree that it is expected from people in senior positions - that is part of the culture that we are talking about, and whether that expectation is right. I dont agree that that should be the reason they are paid more - the higher pay should reflect increased responsibility of the more senior role and reward the expertise they have acquired and employ to day to day practise.
My company is fantastic in that we have grown up as a company together - we were all hungry youngsters in our 20's and now are becoming a more family orientated business as the employees reach early/ mid 30's and start having families. The result is a company that appreciates a better work/ life balance.

It takes one person to start the wave
nah, not really. it takes one person to be sidelined, ignored and first in line for redundancy.
it is very hard for individuals to influence a whole corporate culture.

There are some wifies though that are quite happy for the men to be working long hours . Who like all the money they bring home for them.

Personally I just like to spend time with my hubby and the children.

It is a personal choice however, do you want the money/promosions/"status" and thereby no time with your family, not see your children grow up, not have every weekend off, fall flat on your face when you go on holidays because you are so knackered or
do you prefer earning enough money to get by, and still go on holiday once a year, spend time with your family, learn to know your children, enjoy every weekend.

Harpsi, bit unfair to suggest that people who disagree with long hours culture don't know about RL!

and in a lot of companies I've worked for output/deliverables/results are FAR more important than working long hours. I don't really agree that doing normal hours = being in line for redundancy. I suppose I understand that the fear of it might mean people think they have to do the hours though.

sorry to hear that you are sad mmjanitor. not nice for you or DH - he obv. wants to do well and provide for his family.

That's why I gave up teaching. I didn't really feel that the £19,000 a year quite compensated me for the 70 hours a week I was spending trying to do my job well.

How do you expect it to change then Harpsichordcuddler?

Stand your ground and if they fire you because you don't do unpaid overtime take it to court. I never said it was going to be easy.

How did the whole women going to work/equal rights start? By one person getting the ball rolling and getting people to realise that she had a point maybe?

I think it depends on where you work and how much you get paid. I get paid a pretty crap salary adn make sure that I get my TOIL if I work late/overtime/weekends (which is necessary at times in my job).
My boss is on twice my salary Why? because they except him to sort things out if things go wrong and work till the job is done. thats why he's paid what he is. simple as that.
If you get paid a good wage then the company have a right to expect a good job to be done.

I think it the norm in some fields - dh is in IT and when working as a permanent employee was expected to do 1.5-2 hours unpaid overtime every day and work the odd weekend (unpaid) as a matter of course. If he left earlier or refused this was considered a sign of a serious lack of commitment
I'm not sure whether there are regional differences - he's always worked in W. Yorks. or N. Yorks. as a permie, and it's always been like that (been working in IT since he left school, 19 years ago).

Anyway - because it's frustrating and upsetting and simply extremely unfair, he will only work as a contractor now. Every minute worked is logged and paid for.

maisie- the problem is they never just fire you, because they would obviously set themselves up a legal challenge. They just watch and wait and find ways to sideline your job/ make you redundant/ sit you by the window. I am very cynical about UK companies. Not one of the places I've worked at has ever put employee welfare as a higher priotirty than their own bottom line.

working hours in the employment contract are always just given as a guideline, anyway - it always has some sneaky clause about working all the hours required to do the job.

Does anyone have any experience of non UK companies? As I said - I think our company is actually very good at giving a good work/ life balance - but we employed someone who used to work for Vodafone Sweden and she was shocked at how family unfriendly the UK was as a whole. Are other countries better than the UK at supporting this?

Geekgirl - I remember my employment contract was amended and I had to sign a piece of paper that said I accepted working more than the 48(?) hr (think that was the hours) week. wonder what would have happened if i had refused to sign it? So dont think they can be sneaky about it anymore.

My dh is on a reasonable wage. Not outstanding. But he is paid that to do a job within the stated hours. If you have, say a £50,000 job/52 weeks/37.5 hrs = £25.64 per hour. If you choose to work say 45 hrs a week - and that is only 7.5 hrs extra - divide it by 5 days - thats 1.5 hrs extra per day - lots of men do that = £50000/52/45 = £21.36 Why work for £5 less per hour. If you were paid £10 per hour and then asked to work for £5 per hour ??????
Do your job , in the hours set. If you don't more fool you, your compnay are setting unrealistic targets - or is it YOU, who are setting unrealistic deadlines.

Harpsi, I'm not talking lunch of hours and hours, wine by the bottle. No one is peering over his shoulder. Why not take 3/4 hr or an hour - as specified in your contract, instead of 10 minutes. He gives 110 % - and I really do believe that, the rest of the time. He brings it on himself. And that makes me cross.

I am outside london, in fact I am outside the SE, and my DH regular works over and above his contracted hours.

For example, he is away a lot on business which often means 15/16/17/18 hour days entertaining clients etc, for days, sometimes weeks, on end. He doesn't get paid an 'hourly rate' and therefore doesn't get paid 'overtime' for doing this, but it is part of his job.

All of the other members of the Board (and most of the 'senior management' level staff) work long hours.

Yes, it is frustrating at times, but that's the job. We knew it was going to put pressure on us when he took the position but we decided that it was worth it in the name of DH's career progression, the additional salary and DH's happiness at work. I'd rather he worked 15 hour days in a job he loved and felt valued in, than a job he did 8 hours a day in but felt like he was going nowhere, and dreaded Monday mornings.

In many senior management+ posts it is very much the norm to work over and abve your contracted hours.

What about people that have to travel for their jobs ? They are away and in most cases not being paid overtime for being away but it is part of their job.

When I was working I worked in a not dissimilar field to my dh so understand the need to do the hours (most of the time I understand although even then I rant about it too) - I was expected to be able to drop my life and work for up weeks and months at a time away from home and work whatever hours were required to meet clients needs (which by their nature were very short deadlines). I chose to stop doing this when I had children as I knew that i wouldn't be able to give this type of commitment and would therefore not get anywhere within the profession.

SO now I am 'just' a wifey.

dh's does

DH's contract states that he is expected to work outside his contracted hours for no extra pay. Most do, even my piddling p/t NHS contract does.