Working late. Is it the norm now ? How sad.

[Oblomov]

I posted on two threads yesterday about dh's who work later than their contracted hours.
Barney2 's dh works "(7am) and not home until late (gone 7pm" - so thats a 12 hr day then. And he always says yes to another extra job, if asked. Fillyfonk said "the company won't go into liquidation", if he says no. I agree with Fillyfonk.
Rabsters dh works "9 - 5.30, yet he seems to work 8.30 - 6 most days" so thats an extra hour every day.7 hours a week. A DAY A WEEK. That he does. FOR NOTHING.
Cod said "stop naggin". McDreamy,heifer, HonoriaGlossop, all basically / pretty much said that it was the norm thesedays.
And everyone is saying, this is the norm. REALLY ?
What I am asking, is not what time your dh gets home. Because everyone's is different, they work different hours, have diffrerent length commutes.
I am asking why people think it is o.k. to regularly do more than your contracted hours. I.e do an extra DAY for free, every week.
Last week, there was a post about a lady who had been made redundant, after giving so much. Aloha posted that "But I say never, ever consider yourself as working for anyone else, whether you work full time or part time, always put yourself and your own interests above those of your company. Because you can bet that the company will NEVER put your interests above their financial ones." I agree with her.
No company gives a sh*t about any employee. So if Aloha's argument is right ( and I beleive it is), why give ONE day PER WEEK, extra, for nothing.
If you think that this is the norm these days, for people to do extra hours, I think it is VERY SAD.
My dh has a new job as an Operations Manager. He doesn't take a full lunch. He regularly gives extra 1/2, 3/4 , 1 and 1/2 hrs extra. His men get paid overtime. But he doesn't. He says it is expected. I think, he thinks, that I am naieve. I am not naieve, I know people do it. I just think, that the work / life balance has become totally out-of-proportion. And I think its WRONG.
Maybe its just me, then ?

I don't think it's the norm outside London. I think it used to be the norm in London when I worked there but no, where I work (large corp, home counties) people all leave at 5pm with the odd exception for peak periods.

huh?

And I'd be FURIOUS if my dh did 12 hour days.
Esp if he did them for no money.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect your partner to be home for a decent portion of the day.

I think its the norm in certain areas of work (possibly area of country too ?) whether its right or wrong.

DH leaves home at around 7am gets home ususally earliest 10pm, works at some point over weekend (although usually at home) and often works into early hours or all night. His line of work 'requires' it although I have told him if everyone in his field refused they could change it but don't think its likely really.

Does it say in his contract that he can't put in for his overtime (i.e. get paid overtime or time of in lieu)?

If it does not say this then he should arrive when he is contracted to arrive and leave when he is contracted to leave. If they want him to stay later or arrive earlier, then they should re-negotiate the contract.

If he can put in for his overtime then he should do so, no excuse if he does not.

Dh works for the NHS - he works ridiculous hours anyway but in addition he often is late home/has a shortened lunch hour/doesn't take breaks. I remember him saying once that he doesn't do it for the organisation, per se, he does it for his colleagues - and without that level of good will and that general feeling of not wanting to leave equally hard working colleagues 'in the lurch' the NHS would grind to a halt. The NHS know that, and exploit it - hence freezes on job recruitment, where you end up (as has happened several times with dh) with one person doing two people's jobs.

Fwiw, I think it's wrong too.

If they want it to change they have to do something about it.

I know it aint going to be easy, but what do you expect is going to happen if they don't do something real about it.

Dh, as a senior Manager, it clearly specifies that there is no O/T. So why give a minute more of your life, to any company, rather than to yourself, your family ? I just don't get it. Why ? I think I am in the minority (no change there, then), to feel this way.

He doesn't want to change. He is happy. He thinks that top Managers, it is expected.

I frequently argue at work that if a company chooses to under resource then that company should not expect their employees families to make up the shortfall.

The people who work for me know I don't expect them to stay late/work early except in v exceptional circumstances.

And if it is expected then it shouldn't be. The only way it will change is if people say no and stop doing it.

It's silly. I agree that it has become the 'norm' but that doesn't make it right.

My DH always says 'yes' to new jobs, puts in the extra effort whilst others in the office coast by. Everyone still remains in their job and gets their bonus at the end of the year. It really pisses me off.

Maybe a chief exec earning £2.5m might do longer hours, fine if they want to but middle and senior managers? no.

Hi - I have lived and worked in London for the last 10 years and have until getting married and finding a shift in my priorities - always worked more than my contracted hours - at my desk by 7/7.30 - worked through lunch, never left before 6. In my experience, when you are in your 20's and career hungry - you can very easily live and breathe work, i wasnt in serious relationships - had no one to answer to and found it rewarding. The result was getting promoted year on year and setting up and running a team by the age of 30. So, unfortunately - people like me drive the culture of long hours; increase the expectation that to get ahead you need to work longer than norm hours - but at the time i knew no better.
The problem becomes when you do want to achieve a better home/ life balance because you may be married have children, whatever the reason.
In London especially - there are still many people in their 30's/ 40's with little/ no ties who will work those longer hours. And those are the people our DH's/ DP's may still be competing against. It isnt easy is it?

I think if someone is regulalry working stupid hours then they either have too much work to do and need to get rid of some of it/delegate/ignore it or they have prioritised their time badly. Presenteeism is bollocks imo.

Agreed WWW - they may well have delegation/ time management issues. I had neither - I was just hungry for recognition and promotion and wanted as many opportunities as possible. So taking on more projects - completing them ahead of deadline made me feel as though i was making myself indispensible. What can i say - young and stupid.

We are very lucky as a family that my husband works in an environment where "jacket on chair" syndrome just doesn't exist. For all employers' lip-service to improving the work-life balance of their staff, they still want to squeeze as much as possible for as little as possible from people.

People should just refuse to buy into that crap- nobody is indispensable, and if employers refuse to employ enough people to do the work available, that should be their problem and not their staff's.

You can just say no, if you have the guts to. A very good friend from university is very high up in hospital management despite refusing steadfastly to subscribe to this culture. He leaves on the dot of 5:30 every day, does not have a mobile phone, blackberry, or do any work at home. It has not held him back at all.

yes it is absolutely the norm in senior positions and has been for a very long time.
it is expected and more to the point the workload is skewed so that, if we don't work these extra hours, the clients/work will suffer.
that's why senior people get paid more.and as for not taking a full lunch those days are gone gone gone.
I can't believe you are surprised by this tbh.

I really think it is the person doing the overtime that you need to work on here. If you are not happy with your partner working this much overtime for no extra money then you need to sit down with him and ask him where he thinks his priorities lie, with the family or the work.

It is really the person that is doing the overtime that is being a bit of a donkey here, not the company.

If I ran a company I would keep my mouth well shot if my employees worked 12 hour shifts instead of 8 hour shifts and did not claim overtime for it. They are saving me a huge amount of money, and lining my pockets with even more money.

I don't think its as simple as saying 'just don't do the hours'. In professions where its expected it takes everyone in that profession to turn round and say they are not doing it to make a change.

If DH said he was going to work the hours he wanted to do regardless of what clients wanted he would not have a job.

I have heard of a Chief Exec in a very large company who used to go round the office after 5pm and if anyone was still there he'd ask why and tell them to get off home.

It takes one person to start the wave. Changes are never going to be made if nobody speaks up.

yes, absolutely wheelybug. it isn't jacket on the chair syndrome. it is about staying competitive and keeping your job, in lots of cases.
my dh works ridiculous hours. I can assure you that isn't because he can't delegate or has time management issues. it is what is expected. yes, he could do with another member of staff but there is a recruitment freeze.
this is what happens in RL.

I think that in our friend's working culture (NHS management) presenteism is the norm, yet John has managed to progress very well over the last twenty years without buying into it. He is not married, does not have children, and does have caring duties (any more- he nursed his mother for a year though). He just has the balls to say NO.