Page 6 | To wonder why Sajid Jarvis was so quick to remove Shamima Begum’s British nationality

MrsSchadenfreude · 2019-02-22T15:54:05+00:00

But has done nothing about removing Asma Assad’s? Asma Assad is a dual British-Syrian National, so why not deprive her (and her kids) of British nationality? I can’t quite believe that the government hasn’ Done this. Why on Earth not?

KissingInTheRain · 23/02/2019 07:53

As far as I understand it (via the media, from an experienced immigration lawyer who specialises in cases from South Asia), Bangladesh automatically confers citizenship on the children of Bangladeshi parents. A person in that position does not need to apply. The automatic right apparently lapses when the person reaches 21.

Again as I understand it from the media, Shamima Begum’s parents do both have Bangladeshi citizenship. She does therefore have Bangladeshi citizenship of right.

The law on revoking citizenship has been in statute for nearly 40 years. Apparently over 100 ISIS Brits have had their British citizenship removed, because they had dual citizenship.

The complication here is that Begum was 15 when she left and has a child. That, I suspect, is why there was delay in stripping her of citizenship.

It looks to me as though Javid was quite careful. The frothing on this thread about him is all a bit self-regarding, IMO.

sailorsdelight · 23/02/2019 08:00

Because he has leadership ambitions and is trying to look ‘tough’ even though he knows it won’t stick when challenged. She’s an easy target and he gets to look like the big man.

Jazzybeats · 23/02/2019 08:06

I expect Bangladesh know their own lawsbetter than we do. They’ve rejected her as a citizen.

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2019 08:08

It depends if they have actually broken a UK law ....
you cannot just prosecute people for being different*
in the UK at least*

No, it depends on whether you can prove beyond all reasonable doubt that someone has broken UK law which is very difficult to do if they have been breaking it in another country.
Noone wants her prosescuted just for being "different" fgs. They want her prosecuted for joining a terrorist organisation. Personally I think they should be able to prosecute her for that alone and I am quite surprised that there doesn't seem to be a law that enables then to do so. T

Fazackerley · 23/02/2019 08:10

France don't have any jihadists back . They used to, then the Bataclan happened (ex jihadists). No-one seems to mind. It's sad, but she can't come back and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

KissingInTheRain · 23/02/2019 08:11

Jazzy

You’d expect the UK to know it’s own laws, and how and when they can be applied properly, wouldn’t you?

Fazackerley · 23/02/2019 08:11

All this stuff about him needing to look like the big man is stupid. He's done the right thing and I'm sure he didn't take it likely. She has to act as a deterrent, sadly.

Fazackerley · 23/02/2019 08:12

*lightly

Jazzybeats · 23/02/2019 08:12

Yes. I would. And now it seems the government can deem that I’m not a citizen, if it so chooses. Please try and convince me that’s a good thing.

Fazackerley · 23/02/2019 08:14

Are you a member of a terrorist organisation jazzy? If not then you don't have anything to worry about

Jazzybeats · 23/02/2019 08:15

Oh and I’m pretty sure upholding our laws requires due process. In a court of law. As a British citizen, we have those rights. Unless, it seems, you have dark skin, in which case the government can revoke your citizenship and send you to the Caribbean/Bangladesh/wherever.

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2019 08:15

Yes. I would. And now it seems the government can deem that I’m not a citizen, if it so chooses. Please try and convince me that’s a good thing.

They can only do that if they deem you to be a dual citizen as in this case though. I'm not saying it is right but it is not correct to state that they can do it to everyone.
I wonder if this will make people think twice about having dual citizenship.

KissingInTheRain · 23/02/2019 08:19

Dungeon, exactly.

I’m not arguing that the government should have taken away Begum’s - or anyone else’s British citizenship. I’m suggesting that in this case it seems as though they can.

Moorfields · 23/02/2019 08:26

Shamima has broken one law though and that is using her sister's passport to leave the U.K.. Unless using a passport fraudulently isn't a crime.......She must look very similar to her sister to have avoided detection at passport control. Unless they looked at the photo & decided that the skin colour matched rather than the facial features.....

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2019 08:27

Shamima has broken one law though and that is using her sister's passport to leave the U.K.

I don't know if that would carry a prison sentence though especially considering that she was only 15.

Moorfields · 23/02/2019 08:32

The muppets they employ at passport, how embarrassing for them to have been tricked by a 15 year old using someone else's passport.

sashh · 23/02/2019 08:33

What are the implications of being stateless by the way?

No right to live in any country in the world, or to enter any country. No or limited access to healthcare and education. Possibly not able to have a bank account which means no way to plan for retirement, and that's if you can work which many countries do not allow without citizenship or a visa.

Have you seen 'The Terminal'? That's based on someone who lived in an Airport for 18 years because he was stateless.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/refugees-enter-uk-stranded-army-base-cyprus-20-years-dhekelia-akrotiri-a8665931.html

KissingInTheRain · 23/02/2019 08:36

The muppets they employ at passport, how embarrassing for them to have been tricked by a 15 year old using someone else's passport.

Zeroing in on the big issue...

Jazzybeats · 23/02/2019 08:36

I don’t think she actually has dual citizenship. Bangladesh has denied it. I read it as the government has revoked her citizenship on the basis that she may be eligible for citizenship elsewhere. That’s a very different story.

I am not a dual citizen, however there is a strong chance that somewhere in my heritage I may be eligible for citizenship elsewhere.

So now the government can say to me, fuck you Jazzy you are not British anymore.

It’s fundementally not right.

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2019 08:49

I don’t think she actually has dual citizenship. Bangladesh has denied it. I read it as the government has revoked her citizenship on the basis that she may be eligible for citizenship elsewhere. That’s a very different story.

What you think isn't relevant regarding dual citizenship though isn't?
The have decided that she arguably does or could have dual citizenship according to advice from lawyers specialising in immigration law. Unless you also specialise in this, why do you think you know better. It will be up to the courts to decide.

Heartofgoldheadofcabbage · 23/02/2019 08:49

She's a woman who was groomed in the UK as a child, her family isn't particularly 'nice' in terms of their views, she's dark skinned, not emaciated and delicate looking, articulate and was effectively trained to overcome any response to humans being killed just as soldiers are trained by any country

Had she been a light skinned, attractive little thing who sobbed and wailed, whose babies had survived, who had parents with the funds and ability to come across as middleclass/hire a hotshot PR and lawyer, it would have been completely different

She's being treated like this not because of what she specifically has done whilst there, she's being treated like this because it's always the female's fault and not the fault of the man who groomed her in the way that so many paedo and hebephiles do and, through her experiences, she is strong/a survivor, rather than prepared to present herself as a victim in the way that girls and women are expected to do in society

IF they had half a brain, they'd be bringing her back to find out as much information as possible (assuming that as a female, she'd have actually been trusted with any in the first place), to give information about how she was groomed, to inform development of the PREVENT strategies and generally treated as a victim of sustained grooming and sexual abuse as a child. But picking on the bad dark skinned wimmins is always a vote winner

THIS
I have attended a number of courses/briefings on radicalisation including far-right idealisation, grooming and prevent strategy...what has gone on with SB contradicts what is being taught as part of these courses/briefings...and will push the innocent to ignore the suspicious or guilty within their communities.

Moorfields · 23/02/2019 08:54

KissingInTheRain exactly, the whole situation is a cover up for many embarrassing situations at the British end. Cock up at passport control, nobody checking the passports correctly & letting 3 unaccompanied teenagers through. The fiasco that is brexit and the home Secretary's political ambitions. Add a stupid teenager who thinks watching beheadings is a cool advert for a hell hole to go & live. You couldn't make it up.

Shamima must be spectacularly dumb or think we're as stupid as she is to think we'd have any sympathy for her. However, due process has to be followed so we'll have to wait and see.

Dungeondragon15 · 23/02/2019 08:55

I am not a dual citizen, however there is a strong chance that somewhere in my heritage I may be eligible for citizenship elsewhere.

Do you parents have dual citizenship and are from a country that normally automatically gives citizenship to people in that situation? If not, then you are not in a similar position even if you did join a terrorist organisation.

Xenia · 23/02/2019 09:04

Kissing's post above is right and also we have done this to a lot of people and it has huge support int he UK. If people want to be against us like this and have two nationalities or passports then they will have to cope with their second one. I only have one. I don't have the choices this lady has.

I n fact doing my recent famliy tree work I have found no ancestor back to the 1750s who is not British actually - a few irish in the 1800s but they came here when it was part of the UK. I keep hunting for something more exotic but the further back we go the more likely they marry someone in the same village actually rather than a different continent.

The UK and Canadian Letts, I think he has said recently that he does not expect the UK to let him back and probably not Canada. He seems to expect to have to stay in a Syrian jail.

SaturdayNext · 23/02/2019 09:09

The have decided that she arguably does or could have dual citizenship according to advice from lawyers specialising in immigration law

I'm not sure that that's an assumption we can make, Dungeons. This government's track record in the courts demonstrates that it has a history of ignoring the law, and it simply isn't likely that in every case it has lost the lawyers told them they were absolutely right. You only have to look at Grayling's history to see that - he has an extraordinary track record of coming up with decisions and policies that a first year law student could tell him were unlawful, and then spending ridiculous amounts of money trying to defend the indefensible. In fact, a friend of mine who worked in a government legal department said that he regularly advised that a potential claim was indefensible only to be told that, nevertheless, the department wasn't going to concede.

The simple fact is that a number of lawyers who are experts in international law - which is the field we are concerned with rather more than immigration law - have explained carefully why Javid is likely to be wrong. It does appear likely that he knows perfectly well that he's on very shaky ground but has chosen to take this stance because it appeals to the Mail/Express reading sector of the population from which the Conservatives derive a hefty proportion of their votes.