To think db has been scammed by his ex

[lurchersrool]

Db is going through a divorce. There are two children involved who he sees regularly and the divorce was triggered by his infidelity - though he's single now and insists the marriage was in trouble for years before he cheated which was certainly how it looked from the outside tbf.

Anyway, the point is there was fault on both sides but I feel he has been royally shafted by the way the finances have been dealt with. He and I were both given £80k by df in order to buy property. That was about 12 years ago, just before the crash. Db and exsil had just got together but they bought the property together, despite df raising some concerns about it. I don't know all the ins and outs but they had a fair bit of work done on the property which involved re-mortgaging and a couple of years ago moved to a bigger house.

Apparently the situation now is that the amount of equity is so little that there is no point in selling and they have no other assets so db can't get his £80k, or even half of it back. Ex sil has said the most the bank can lend her is £20k, and even that she's saying will partly need to cover her legal costs, so he's going to end up with a pittance. I think it's a joke. She has a well-paid job while db has no real career as such. He has back problems from an injury he got years ago and has always struggled to hold down permanent jobs. He looked after one of the dc for a year as a baby so ex sil could go back to work, but now he's being left with nothing, well nothing aside from a share of her pension but he obviously won't get that for years so nothing really tangible.

It just seems so wrong. He refused to get a solicitor although I had offered to help pay, and I know df is beside himself worrying about db's future. He thought the £80k would at least see him in secure housing but now it seems to have gone and db is back to shitty bedsits. To make it worse she is now asking for maintenance which I think is just spiteful. Normally I always think men should pay for their kids but this woman has a well-paid job and db literally has nothing. AIBU to think she shouldn't be putting in this claim and db has been treated really badly here?

Op, you are not helping your brother if you allow him to feel he has been scammed. He really hasn't been.

If there is no equity it means its owned by the bank not SIL.
"db is pretty vague about how it all works"

I think you might be getting scammed as I doubt he is vague, just not sharing as much detail because he wants to be portrayed as a victim. A judge will NOT sign off a unfair deal, especially if he has not had representation. Something doesn't stack up here.

Please don't enable him, he makes bad decisions as in a UK housing good marketplace he lost all the money, pretty tough to do, especially if SIL was paying the mortgage.
Your df should question him hard as I suspect you don't know the full truth where the money has gone.

If the Ex is keeping the house, she is either doing so on interest only (which means she is renting it) or she has an enormous mortgage to pay on her own.

Change your mindset as I don't think you will help your brother to grow if he believes it's all someone else's fault.

I think she's always been quite controlling tbh and ex is more laidback.

He sounds like an utter wastrel so not surprised she’s had to take the lead. If there’s no equity then how is she supposed to leverage funds to find £80k? The bank isn’t a magic money tree.

Cross posted with your update..solicitor is right, selling & moving costs will take up most of the equity.

I understand your empathy for your brother but I think he has to be responsible for his decisions..he isn't a victim and it doesn't help him to continue with this thought process.

He is getting a pension share which shows his Ex has disclosed finances so it's not a scam...just 2 people who have children and lost lots of money due to poor decisions.
Divorce makes both parties poorer BUT statistically women are worse off since she has the cost for children.

Encourage your brother to reenter the workplace in whatever form. Be consistent with seeing the children as being a good das is priceless.

I just don't see what she's gaining from insisting on a tenner or whatever she'd get.

It isn't her money to decline, it's his children's money.

I think she's always been quite controlling

Alternatively, she's had to bear all the responsibility and he needs a rocket up his bum to make him do anything.

I'm sure there is some fault on both sides. I'm sure you feel terrible for someone you love. That said it's clear this situation is entirely the product of his choices.

As many PPs have said- making excuses is not kind in the long run. Being harsh when needed is not cruel. Help him be a better person, don't enable his childishness.

He sees kids a lot, including when she's at work, just not overnight atm

So basically she’s a full-time RP, he contributes nothing financially...? It’s a good job she’s a “career woman”.

If I were you I’d be asking myself why he’s so reluctant to see a solicitor when someone is offering to pay for it.

He isn’t being scammed.

for the second she insisted on taking a year off
What a fucking monster wanting to take the time off with her baby after she’s given birth and you db got to do it the first time around

So why doesn’t your brother have earning potential and why can’t he get it?
My guess is he was off with the first kid for a year because if she hadn’t gone back to work they’d have gone under financially so she had to give up mat leave to keep the family afloat.

And as for wanting a tenner off your brother when she can afford it, it’s the fucking principle at the end of the day.
If he can afford a tenner for his kids why the hell wouldn’t he pay it? So what if she can afford it he needs to step the fuck up imo.
If he could only afford 50p a week for his kids why wouldn’t he pay it? He should be wanting to provide whatever he can afford for his kids. Not getting out of his responsibilities because he wide can provide. He sounds like a peach and so do you. I’m hoping this thread isn’t real to be honest because if it is the sil is well rid of the lot of you. She deserves the 80 for putting up with all of your shit.

db has caused him a fair bit of worry over the years

This gives more insight into your brother. In what way?

So she works and can afford to takee the kids in holiday? And that’s rubbing salt into his wounds?

Really? If he’d worked and used his time to gain decent employment and improve his earning potential he would be in the same position, he chose not to. No doubt thinking she’d carry him for life. Sounds like she made a decent decision and got free of him.

If they borrowed and paid back your DM... It sounds like they were both over spenders.
Did they go on holidays, have cars?
As I bet they cleared off their debts when they sold the house, and this is were the 80k has gone.

Seems really unlikely that after 12 years there's no equity, despite the crash - did they not pay their mortgage?

To be honest, he sounds like a bit of an idiot if their finances are in this much of a mess.

Normally I always think men should pay for their kids but this woman has a well-paid job and db literally has nothing

If he has literally nothing then he can pay literally nothing, but if he has something (benefits, etc, he should pay to support his children. How much she earns is irrelevant to his maintenance payments.

If he's not working he could have the DC and she could pay him maintenance though?

This mess really doesn’t sound of his own making, not a scam at all.

Look, she’s not “spiteful” - she’s done this by the book. She’s seen a solicitor and made full financial disclosure. As a result, she is buying him out of the equity in the house - £20K. That’s not a scam.

In addition to that, she has agreed to a Pension Sharing Order. That has to be signed off by a judge. It really isn’t easy to shaft your ex in divorce. Forget about the super rich with offshore accounts, forget about the self employed hiding their income. This couple are run of the mill house + pension + jobs. Not particularly complex stuff. So whatever pensio share the judge has agreed to, is likely to be fair. And actually, possibly worth more to him than £80K. Why don’t you see it from her side? “I paid more than him when we married, he cheated, yet I’ve lost x% of my pension to him”.

She has done things by the book.

You almost seem to criticise that it was her that got 3 house valuations. How is that a scam? From the outside (and I’ll admit a biased outside of a woman who divorced a lazy man!) I just see that he just dumped her with all the effort of divorce. With estate agents windows and zoopla for instant access to sale prices, I think it’s unfair to hint that as it was her that got the valuations, perhaps he should challenge them.

So now, day zero. They split their assets. He gained from her pension. But she can afford to take the kids on holiday and he can’t - that’s not her fault.

Don’t forget she’s bearing the vast majority of the childcare cost (including housing) for the 2 kids. Of course he should be paying maintenance!

You are being blinkered and buying into his woe is me crap. Everything you have posted, she has done by the book - solicitor, valuations, buying him out, pension sharing.

That the £80K got run through over many years - not solely her fault.

Honestly, your dad needs to accept that he made a bad decision here. He had concerns from the start - he should have insisted the money was ring fenced. It’s a shame for him, but the lack of the £80K for your brother now is no more the XW’s fault than your brother’s, and your dad could have taken steps when he had concerns.

Of course he hasn't lost or been scammed out of £80k. Tell him to try going out and buying a comparable house to the one he has now for £80k, go on, tell him to try, estate agents,love a good laugh. The money he had is now tied up in the family home, and is actually worth a lot more than the original amount, he just can't get his greedy hands on it because his wife and children are living in it.

He doesn't sound too bright your brother, it's probably a good idea he can't access he cash because he would probably blow it in months rather than investing it.

YABVU. It's not his ex's fault the market crashed just after they bought. How do you expect him to get £80k out of a house that has no equity without throwing his kids out into the street?! Not to mention it sounds like it's her who's carried the family financially - why should he benefit? Is this a reverse?

Also he didn't "look after his child so SIL could go back to work" - he looked after his child because it makes sense to do it that way if she's the higher earner.

And it doesn't matter how little you earn, his ex will see a huge dent in her outgoings with being a single mum and he needs to pay for the children he made.

As we don't know either your brother or her, either of these extremes could be true, and everything in between;

Extreme 1. He's a lovely, trusting guy, who happily shared his £80k, then contributed fairly to the family, taking on the major housework/childcare to enable his wife to work, when their relationship turned sour he tried hard to fix it, before finally giving up. He now has no home, no earning potential, and only controlled access to his kids, she wants to take all his disposable income even though it makes no difference to her financial pot, just as revenge.

Extreme 2. He made the initial investment as a lure in. Since then he's Been a cock lodger. She's been doing everything whilst he's sat on his arse. She stayed together because of the children. Then he had an affair. Final straw for her. She can't do anything about the £80k without upsetting dcs routine and that isn't fair on them. She wants to protect her children's future by getting the legal amount of future income from their father.

For all we know she cheated too...

For all we know your DB spent his Friday nights dressed as a woman and making his wife call him Nancy, but perhaps random speculation isn't best hey?

OP go away and learn how house prices work before making bizarre claims that it's your SILs fault I also bought 12 years ago just before the crash and if I sold the flat which I now rent out, I wouldn't see a penny, I'd be lucky to cover what I owe the bank. Is that your SIL's fault too, about my property?

lurchersrool

"He is adamant about not seeing a solicitor, I think he feels guilty. But I also think he has given up. I asked about him getting custody of the kids but he says that he wouldn't do that to his ex and that he sees her as the main parent anyway. I think she's always been quite controlling tbh and ex is more laidback."

As others have pointed out he has not done as much as her, she works (presumably fill time) and is the main carer.

Of course he feels guilty, he fucked up!

"He stayed home with their youngest when she was born and for the second she insisted on taking a year off."

Of course she did. That's pretty normal.

"He just seems defeated now." In a few years hos kids will be adults, he has a lifetime to be their dad. He needs to see the bigger picture. Get back into work, be a good dad and sort out this stuff going forward.

"I do get what people are saying about the maintenance and I don't exactly disagree. It just felt like a final straw when I heard it yesterday but it won't make that big a difference either way."

My friend and her controlling ex split about a decade ago. He pays no maintenance. She has not told kids. I think they have a right to know their dad cannot be bothered to pay anything for their welfare. Yoir DB should pay something and see a solicitor and stop feeling like he is a victim.

"He's never going to turn into a big earner, it's just not him and he does get back problems a lot that d affect him."

I'm not sure she or anyone else is expecting him to turn into a high earner. But he could try and retrain to a job he can manage with his physical limitations, and move forward.

"I just again don't see why she needs to take more from db in those circumstances. " that's why talking to a solicitor is a good idea. To work out what is fair.

"her solicitor has told her there's no point in selling, and a judge would agree because they'd both only be left with £10 k (ish) and that's not enough to start again, at least not without a mortgage, which db would never get on his own, which I do agree with"

Maybe so but maybe not, he won't know.

"I'm going to get him to look into getting her to sell when kids are grown up I think, but don't know if he will or of it's too late. What a fucking mess...."

It is a mess which your DB seems to have contributed to and which you and your dad are worrying about. One day he will look back and think I wish I had taken my sister's advice.

You're a good sister and hope he listens.

Can he not move in with his girlfriend?

yesterday they were on about a holiday she is taking them on, which again seemed t be rubbing salt in the wound

erm, or you know, giving the kids a holiday! Something to look forward to in the midst of their parents splitting up.

Do you know what? You really need to disengage with the whole thing as your instincts are wildly off on every issue. Even when you try to see her side you're still hyper critical and skewed towards your DB, seemingly cutting him more slack than he'd even cut himself. You 'can't help but feel' any number of misguided things, so the best you can do is keep them to yourself.

He sees kids a lot, including when she's at work, just not overnight atm and yesterday they were on about a holiday she is taking them on, which again seemed t be rubbing salt in the wound

How awful for your poor brother, his children of 5 and 7 are talking about their holiday . How dare they be excited, I hope he told them to shut the fuck up because feckless waster of a dad’s feelings must always come first.

The more you write about him, the more I admire his ex for getting away from him and a building a life for her and her kids.

Someone said sil has no solicitor - she bloody

God what a total bitch protecting herself legally

I hope his ex knows that he can't force a sale until the youngest is at least 18. In this country the law protects children, not adult babies, and to mitigate the distress of divorce children are entitled to stay in the family home with the resident parent. Your DB sounds like a lousy parent if he's trying to kick his 5yo and 7yo out their own home for the sake of a few quid

So the poor kids whose life has been turned upside down by their fathers inability to keep his dick in his pants are now to be denied a holiday because it will upset their father.

HMmmmm.

I think with every drip feeding additional post I am finding it harder to believe this little story. I am calling it.

Like - getting him to sell when the kids are grown up. He'd only be entitled to half the value of it now, which is nothing (or £20k tops, which she's willing to give him). Why on earth would he be entitled to it when the kids have grown up and she's paid all the mortgage?? (Worth saying he could also see the 80k as his 'rent' for the past 12 years. It's not like he's got nothing for it)

Likewise you keep on about how her making him pay maintenance is spiteful and just to prove a point etc, apparently unable to see that the point is important. It's for HIS KIDS. There's no world in which he should not pay it, short of being in a coma. Your perspective is pretty warped however much you try to reason.

Why does he see her as the main parent? I thought she was the main earner, so he'd done the childcare bit? Or does he contribute differently? I think I've missed something..... Unless he wants to opt out of most everything....

You know, the person I feel most sorry for is the father, who gave £80k of his hard-earned money, for it to be gobbled up by poor investment and remortgaging.

Yes it's very hard work indeed getting a bank transfer from mummy and daddy