To rant about “evil” people

[Stormypaige]

What’s all this shit about ‘evil’ people? Begum is ‘evil’, Bulger killers are ‘evil’, Trump is ‘evil’, etc?

Kids who still believe in magic, or religious fanatics might talk like this, but adult / balanced / rational people should know better!!

Probably got something to do with gutter-press headlines trying to dehumanise and sensationalise people like Begum.

When exactly do people become ‘evil’? At birth? At the point they commit a crime? What about when they were still planning the crime- were they evil then? Or before?

We dehumanise at our peril. Understanding is the only way to prevent such crimes in society. Understanding doesn’t mean excusing it. But no understanding can come from the term evil.

Damaged? Definitely.
Worthy of punishment? Of course.
Unforgivable? Quite possibly.

Evil? Grow up.

Call it what you like, rationalize it how you like, sanitize it by explaining it away in terms of the clinically mundane but don’t get to dictate what words others use to describe people and acts they find beyond abhorrent or at the extremes of inhumanity. You call it ‘bad’ ‘immoral’ ‘unforgiveable’ or whatever other reductive/ dismissive term you choose to minimize it with. You can call the Jamie Bulger killers ‘very naughty boys’ if you want but, me, I’ll stick to ‘evil’ in the cases that warrant it.

I don't believe calling someone evil absolves them of any responsibility. Its just a word. Not all human beings are nice people.

Of course you can call them whatever you want @WarpedGalaxy but I think OP has a valid point - if you think people are evil (which you're entitled to do), do you think they're born that way? Do you think the boys that killed James Bulger were born bad?

And sometimes mn is still a relief. Yanbu. Although I'm sceptical about punishment being helpful.

WarpedGalaxy- I wouldn’t call the Bulger killers ‘very naughty boys’ I would call them damaged, abused, traumatised children.

Do you have children? Can you imagine the treatment and life experiences it would take to drive them to commit a crime like the Bulger killers did? Because that’s what happened to them.

Not saying what they did wasn’t horrific. Not saying they weren’t dangerous. I’m saying they weren’t evil.

op
have you had the luxury of never having had to deal with evil deeds/acts and yes - people?

ive dealt with evil. its hard to walk away thinking the same way you do.

the killers of victoria climbie?
the killers of the little boy who was crushed to death by a car seat when his mothers boyfriend decided he was being too noisy?
the little girl in sheffield who had multiple fractures and died of a head injury from being punched at less than 2 years old?
have you had the luxury of not ever having to be sat in a room with people who do these acts?

for the record - yesterday i had to deal with a person who had commited a most evil act.

and they did not give a flying fuck that they took a life and caused such pain to a young family by their actions.

my perspective is shaped by my dealings with people who commit evil acts.

what is your perspective shaped by? what practical experience do you have in dealing with the fall out of evil acts? of dealing with a person who commited a terrible terrible act and doesnt actually give a flying fuck?

I think it's easier to categorize some people as evil rather than just their actions being evil because the alternative would be to accept that anyone (including ourselves) can be capable of doing something evil.

The reality is probably somewhere inbetween, most people would never do something evil in (almost?) any circumstances, but a small number of people would. I don't think many people would argue that people are born evil though.

Some people have done something so horrendous that they are imprisoned on whole life terms (or a life sentence without possibility of parole) but in the majority of cases there is the possibility of release after the punishment (sentence) and the idea of rehabilitation and that people can change. It's hard to argue against the idea that some (a tiny minority) of people are indeed 'evil' but perhaps the term is used too easily and too frequently. I am not saying their words or actions are not evil, of course they are, but does that make the person evil? (In the sense that they are incapable of change, rehabilitation and remorse at some stage in the future).

If you see "evil" as dehumanising and excusing criminals, like some kind of entity/demon type thing I can see why you'd object against being used.

I don't.. calling someone evil is just shorthand for "despicable human being capable of (and doing) horrible acts". And there are plenty of people worthy of being called that, some with a horrible past,some not so much.

It also seems that you are conflating several issues in your rant against evil..nature vs nurture, at what point does someone become evil, personal responsibility and does one despicable act make someone "evil". All worthy of discussion of course but not at the same time.

Hellenbackagain

Your job sounds really challenging. I have to be honest and say that I don’t come into daily contact with cruel and sadistic adults.

I do however work with children and young people aged 0-25 with learning and mental health problems, including violent and criminal behaviour.

Children’s actions depend on their views of the world as it is shaped by the adults around them. So if they act in an ‘evil’ way, to me that says much more about their experience of the world to date than it does about them as a person. That is my big issue with, currently, the labelling of Shamina Begum as Evil.

With adults, we assume that they see the world through independent eyes and therefore violent murderous behaviour is a choice indicative of their nature, not their environment. And while I would agree that it is right to hold adults fully responsible for their behaviour, there is no instant psychological switch between childhood and adulthood and I do still think that a person’s environment and experience (and mental health) plays a hugely significant part in what they do. So people in my view can become deepy deeply unpleasent people and do horrific things, but there will be reasons for this: they are not simply ‘evil’.

Sarcasm: Yes I think you might be right there in that people use it differently.

op i kind of get what your saying but you are in the privileged position of not actually having to deal with the consequences of "evil".

i do believe that no child is born bad and that they are purely a product of their upbringing. but that sometimes creates bad people. because bad people breed. and teach their offspring to be entitled self centred selfish fucking arsewipes who commit crimes and ultimately sometimes take lives.

i deal with this day in day out. some of it trivial but a lot of it not. i am a reasonable person but some of the people i deal with are so absolutely full of shit its hard not to want to jump across a desk and shake their stupid faces until they understand what they have done.
people who kill other people generally do not give a flying fuck about it unless its going to impact on them.
people who are "normal" do not kill people.

i think you are absolutely entitled to your opinion but you form that opinion from a lovely position of not dealing with the fallout of evil people doing evil things to people who did not deserve it. and lucky you in that. i am still relatively liberal in most of my thinking but i deal with a reality that you do not. and that of course informs my opinion.
some people ARE evil. sorry!

Hellen think you may have missed this in the op's post:

'I do however work with children and young people aged 0-25 with learning and mental health problems, including violent and criminal behaviour'

farfrom
what is that point exactly?

i work with those and more. have done for 10 years. some people are evil. dont give a fuck about anything but themselves evil.
i work with murderers and paedophilies and idiots and people with mental health issues and .....
and?

people who are "normal" do not kill people

Plenty of "normal " people would and do kill others in certain circumstances. Not all of them are evil. I'd consider evil someone that does it because they get off on it, someone that does it just because they can, and that's not limited to murder or even physical violence either. You can completely fuck up a person and get off on their pain and the power and control without ever laying your hands on them.

No remorse? They enjoy it? Yup that's evil .

i have an opinion on this because i also work with those and others.
i havent missed anything. from my experience some people are evil.
my experience is that.

When you call someone evil you are absolving them of all responsibility for their actions

I don't agree. I do, however, feel that claiming someone committed a heinous act because they had a dreadful childhood effectively takes the blame from them.

People don't want to believe that they would do the same given a certain set of circumstances
So you believe that given a certain set of circumstances you would rape and murder a child? Anbudt and murder numerous children? Commit genocide? That there's a chance you might end up battering old ladies or setting a bomb to kill people going to a music concert or to work on the train?

i had a truly dreadful childhood. abuse and neglect and was in care by 11.

i am now a police officer, i have raised two amazing children and have a total of 2 relationships in my life - my ex dh for 27 years and my current partner for 4.

i do not - and never will - buy the oh poor me i had a shit childhood excuse.
because i had a truly shit childhood. i have posted about it before under a different name and consensus was that yes - it was the shittest of truly shit childhoods.
and yet - tada.....i have a moral compass .

I tend to think labelling people evil is unhelpful because it implies something innate, that nobody can or could do anything about. Circumstances dictate a lot of what human beings do, and people are shaped by their experiences. I do think there are some people who have done such evil acts that they should be permanently removed from society, but we should be willing to look at how they became the people who committed those acts rather than just writing them off as ‘evil’.

I used to have a job which involved being present at trials for very serious offences so I do have some insight into what people are capable of. Interestingly that experience also showed me the awe-inspiring capacity of human beings for love, courage and forgiveness.

Agree with Mornings. If you take someone like Rose and Fred West and say we'll they oy those things because X and Y happened to them, then you're basically saying it isn't their fault. They had no real choice. Life made them do it. But plenty of people survive abuse without becoming abusers themselves. Plenty of people grow to be more than the product of their shit parents. That isn't to say that there aren't circles of abuse, bit there is a point when we have to accept that people do bad things because they like it, and want to, and get off on it. Personally I'd say that makes them fully human, fully responsible, and evil.

I had an abusive childhood. It's not caused me to go want kill, rape, maim anyone. I find the "abusive childhood" card one conveniently pulled as an excuse.

No remorse. Pre-planning. Meticulous execution and attempted covering of tracks. I'd definitely label those evil. I fully accept my view is coloured by familial experiences.

I challenge anyone to deny that Ian Brady and Myra Hindley were evil. There is no other word for them.

i truly believe the biggest problem society has today is that people do not take any responsibility for themselves

had a job tonight
person has mental health and addiction issues but nothing is ever their fault because its everyone elses fault they got like this and they ranted and cried and screamed they needed looking after

they are over 50 years old. and yes sad - history of abuse - but holds not truck with me (see above)

the world owes you fuck all. you make your own decisions as an adult and you know whats right and whats wrong.

and if you dont - you learn - because you will keep getting arrested and put before a court and given countless interventions
and if you keep ignoring those interventions whose fault is that?

some people are just deluded and some are sad but some are evil. some dont give a shit.

@SleepingStandingUp put my daughter's life in the balance and I'd probably do most of those things. It wouldn't be easy but I'd fucking do it.