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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that Martina Navratilova should NOT lose her job at the BBC and that the BBC is biased?

274 replies

TeamNavratilova · 18/02/2019 23:00

On Sunday, Martina Navratilova had an article published in the Sunday Times, giving her views on the inclusion of transwomen (biological males who identify as being women) in women’s sport:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-rules-on-trans-athletes-reward-cheats-and-punish-the-innocent-klsrq6h3x?shareToken=45bc9997e063aaf79646a7f12a7363a6

The BBC subsequently decided to have a discussion item on this on 5 Live and invited Dr Nicola Williams from Fair Play for Women - fairplayforwomen.com - to speak on Martina’s side of the argument along with Rachel McKinnon (a male-bodied cyclist who identifies as a woman and now holds a cycling world title in women’s cycling).

Rachel McKinnon refused to appear on the show if Dr Williams was on so the BBC’s response was to uninvite Dr Williams and instead interview Rachel McKinnon along with another trans sportsperson who agreed with Rachel. The other side of the argument (along with all facts about the physical differences between male and female bodies which Dr Williams could have provided) was not covered and both interviewees were asked (on the BBC, by a BBC presenter) whether the BBC should fire Martina to which they both replied yes: twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1097417280084951040 McKinnon has continued to argue for this online.

AIBU to think that Martina should not lose her commentating job at the BBC for expressing her (considered, researched) views and that the BBC has behaved in a biased and unethical way, firstly, by only presenting one side of an argument on a discussion show and, secondly, by using the opportunity to put forward the idea that Martina should be sacked?

OP posts:
Vixxxy · 21/02/2019 15:18

Also

fondofbeetles.wordpress.com/2018/10/01/harder-better-faster-stronger-why-we-must-protect-female-sports/

Seems to be the best roundup I have seen of the actual differences, and how what sounds like a small performance gap between the sexes, really is not small.

Had to find this yesterday for someone elsewhere trying to argue that sex doesn't matter anyway, its all about how much effort you put in, and obviously just men tried harder Hmm

Charley50 · 21/02/2019 15:22

"I think it's utterly disgraceful for a BBC employee to whip up an on-air debate about whether one of his colleagues should be sacked. I also think it's disgraceful that they had a debate on transwomen in women's sports with only transwomen athletes and the male host in the studio to discuss it. It's almost like 3.5 billion people in the world don't matter and their views shouldn't be heard...
" @FermatsTheorem - absolutely!

charlestonchaplin · 21/02/2019 15:33

based on one biased 'study' with SEVEN people which had self reported results....this apparently overrules the many studies, and the known fact that males have an advantage in most physical stuff.
One of those seven people was the person conducting the study.

CaveMum · 21/02/2019 16:41

Totally agree that it’s so disappointing that no sportsmen are speaking up yet. It’s a sad fact that the mainstream will only start paying attention if someone like Chris Boardman or Andy Murray stood up and spoke out.

I’ve seen people tweeting sportsmen, past and present, on Twitter but so far all I’ve seen is one guy in Yorkshire who runs a women’s professional cycling team say anything in support of Martina.

AryaStarkWolf · 21/02/2019 17:22

Joe Rogan is always vocal about transwomen in Sport

hoodathunkit · 21/02/2019 17:25

I really like Joe Rogan at least most of the time

greathat · 21/02/2019 17:37



Thanks for getting in touch with us about Stephen Nolan broadcast on the 17th February. 

We’ve raised your concerns with our colleagues at 5 live and they clarify that: 

“Guests do not have the power to veto another guest’s appearance. We invited Dr Williams to appear on Sunday nightt_’s programme and after initially agreeing to join us at a later point in the show she subsequently declined. The offer remains open.” 

We hope this explains our position and we’d like to thank you again for taking the time to contact us about this.

Kind Regards

BBC Complaints Team
www.bbc.co.uk/complaintss_

I'm guessing they're doing a lot of copying and pasting at the bbc today

FermatsTheorem · 21/02/2019 17:45

So basically one or other of the BBC or Dr. Williams are lying. I know who my money's on.

CallMeSirShotsFired · 21/02/2019 17:52

I am greatly looking forward to any public statement Dr Williams chooses to put out about this.

CaveMum · 21/02/2019 18:16

My understanding is that Dr Nic declined to appear later in the show because the initial invite was to debate alongside McKinnon. When McKinnon chucked “her” toys out of the pram they kowtowed and asked Dr Nic to move.

So “technically” they offered her a right to reply but removed the invite to actually debate.

I might have that wrong though.

greathat · 21/02/2019 18:18

That's my understanding too @CaveMum which was why when I complained that I said they should be able to debate without one guest overruling who she gets to debate with

ErrolTheDragon · 21/02/2019 18:33

The exact details are in this thread, a direct quote from Dr Nic.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3511185-FPFW-disinvited-from-discussing-Martinas-comments-on-5Live

Posted by Datun at 11:05 today

TeamNavratilova · 21/02/2019 21:42

While it's heartening to see how many top sportswomen have come out in support of Martina (Paula Radcliffe, Kelly Holmes, Chris Evert, Billie Jean King and Sharron Davies to name but a few), I only know this by going on Twitter. On there, on here and in my real life people agree with Martina - or at least think it needs discussing - but if you read the press, you'd think there was universal condemnation of her. And most of the coverage is just about how wrong and evil and transphobic she is - not actually responding to the points she's raised. Angry

OP posts:
CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 21/02/2019 21:45

if you read the press

This is why word of mouth and talking is important.

FermatsTheorem · 21/02/2019 22:06

Depends on which bits of the press you read, Team. The Guardian (predictably) has excoriated her. The BBC have chosen to showcase transwomen and men talking about how wrong she is. However, the Times and Telegraph have been very much "but she's so obviously right - how can anybody question this?"

Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 21/02/2019 22:11

Pasting in Dr Williams’ words:
“”The original booking was made on the phone on Sunday afternoon as is normal. It was going to be a discussion on Steve Nolan show at 10.45pm later that day. I asked who else was on. They said I was the first guest they asked. I confirmed I would do it because I don't mind who I debate. A couple of hours later the producer called to cancel the booking saying there had been a change of plan. I said - is this because of the public tweets by Rachel McKinnon refusing to debate with me and comparing me to the KKK. They producer said yes. I said this was unacceptable and against BBC editorial standards and asked to speak with the shows editor. The editor called and explained I would not be going on. I explained this was a classic silencing tactic used to stifle debate. They offered a slot later on my own, after midnight or one the following weekend. I initially agree to after midnight but then decided I'd go for the slot next week as midnight was simply too late for me to still be working and I quite frankly needed some sleep! Plans are still in place for me to be interviewed this weekend. The issue however, is not where I'm given time on air at some point. It is that I was disinvited from the DISCUSSION based on the demands made by another guest. This is clear breach of BBC policy. The public nature of McKinnons refusal to debate me, and comparing me to running the equivalent of an terrorist group, meant that the BBCs decision to disinvite me will be perceived as an endorsement by the BBC of McKinnons derogatory remarks about me."

AnyOldPrion · 22/02/2019 07:23

Just re-reading this thread and the utter ludicrous nature of this debate struck me anew.

As Martina herself has pointed out, she should not be the newsworthy item at all.

The BBC, Asan unbiased source, should surely have asked a scientific representative from the IOC, or a sports governing body that allows transwomen to compete on to discuss why TW should be allowed. And on the other there should be someone medical who understands the issue and feels the governing bodies have gotthis wrong.

Having a TW sportsperson who has everything to gain and nothing to lose is so absurd that it ought to be laughable.

The Overton window has been shoved so far to one side that it’s hard to remember what this discussion should be about, which is whether there’s good scientific evidence behind the rule changes.

MenstruatorExtraordinaire · 22/02/2019 07:30

www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2019/02/21/martina-navratilova-serving-sense-gender/#

Some favourable press here by James Kirkup.

"Is it transphobic to think there are essential physical differences between someone born male and someone born female? Saying so was enough to have Navratilova branded a bigot and worse: one trans-rights advocate has suggested she should be “executed”."

MenstruatorExtraordinaire · 22/02/2019 08:22

Not just the Canada Winter Games, but also U Sports, governing Canadian Universities changed their policy last year to allow anyone to compete in their desired gender, no hormone suppression required.

t.co/vLe3OQuWOE

AryaStarkWolf · 22/02/2019 11:48

"Is it transphobic to think there are essential physical differences between someone born male and someone born female?

This is the crux of it really. It's sounds so ridiculous I can't even believe it's an actual argument. What has become of people? Seriously. I never thought the Left would actually become a bigger enemy to women than the right. Strange times

CallingDannyBoy · 23/02/2019 08:50

Janice Turner in The Times keeping the pressure on - hope the share works. I still can’t believe we are having this debate. Was the original paper based on reducing testosterone for 1 year based on a study of 7 athletes including the papers author?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/male-bodies-dont-belong-in-womenssport-n5ghggrpk?shareToken=917f39fadd357333d81dfa693c4878c0

MenstruatorExtraordinaire · 23/02/2019 09:17

Male bodies don’t belong in women’s sport
janice turner

Martina Navratilova has been cast out for telling the truth about how trans athletes have an unfair physical advantage

In 1990, after trouncing Zina Garrison 6-4, 6-1 to win her ninth Wimbledon singles title, Martina Navratilova hurtled into the stands to embrace her lover Judy Nelson. A generation before gay marriage, two years after Clause 28 forbade promoting the “acceptability of homosexuality”, Martina defied prejudice and sneers with that joyful Centre Court hug.

For living as boldly as she played, proposing to her present partner before the world at the US Open, Navratilova earned her place in any LGBT pantheon. Yet now she is a pariah in the movement she helped forge, kicked off the advisory board of Athlete Ally, an LGBT sports campaign, while activists lobby the BBC to drop her as a commentator. For what? Because she believes it unjust for male-bodied athletes to compete in women’s sports.

Writing in The Sunday Times, Navratilova said that Rachel McKinnon, a Canadian trans woman who won the 35-44 age category Masters Track cycling world championship, had unfair advantages. The podium photo shows a hefty 6ft-plus, 14-stone McKinnon, who only recently took up the sport, dwarfing two female cyclists. McKinnon had not broken the rules, which merely demand she lower her testosterone (albeit to levels still five times higher than the average female), but she retained the larger skeleton, muscle mass and greater aerobic capacity acquired in male puberty.

It seems quite mad that I have to prove the bleeding obvious: that men are better at sport, which is why Edwardian ladies founded their own competitions so they had any chance of lifting a trophy. But here goes: in every sport based upon strength or speed men have a 10 to 30 per cent advantage. The men’s 100m record, for example, is 9.58 seconds, while the women’s is 10.49, a time regularly achieved by top teenage boys.

In the 1970s, Navratilova, for all the “transphobia” slurs, championed Renée Richards’s right to play in the women’s US Open. Richards, who later became her coach, was over 40 when she underwent full surgical transition yet held her own against females at their physical peak. She has since reflected that if she’d transitioned at 22, “no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I’ve reconsidered my opinion.”

Now, the 100th best young male player could, without surgery, enter the highly lucrative women’s circuit and probably beat Serena Williams. Are Martina and other elite athletes who have supported her — Paula Radcliffe, Chris Evert, Kelly Holmes — bigots for trying to preserve the integrity of women’s sports?

This week I heard a British university professor argue that sex-segregated contests were outdated: women, he said, could improve their times competing against men. The Emperor’s New Running Shoes doctrine dictates that biological sex does not exist: all that counts is the amorphous inner feeling of “gender identity”. Stonewall’s slogan “Trans women are women, get over it” doesn’t mean “trans women should be treated socially and legally as women” — with which many people, including myself, would agree — but that they are biologically women: their bodies are women’s bodies, their penises are women’s penises. (I’m not exaggerating, this is the avowed policy of a mainstream lobby group with the government’s ear.)

If you subscribe to this magical thinking, of course natal males should play in women’s sports, at the very moment they identify as female. When the US powerlifting body concluded it was unfair for trans women to compete against biological women because male “advantages such as increased body and muscle mass, bone density, bone structure, and connective tissue” remain after testosterone suppression, trans activists disrupted events. (McKinnon believes it a human rights violation even to reduce her testosterone, which she sees as naturally produced by her “female” body.)

Yet as Invisible Women, a new book by the feminist campaigner Caroline Criado Perez, demonstrates on every page, biological sex is real. In our pain thresholds and immune systems; our response to stress or cold; the way we manifest Parkinson’s disease or heart attacks; the rate we burn calories or absorb poisons: all reveal distinct differences between women and men.

But to state that biological sex should have any sway in political decisions is now, bizarrely, verboten. You might think, well what does it matter about women’s sports? Trans women constitute a tiny fraction of the population and few will become elite athletes. OK, a few fast girls will never win or feel free to complain at the injustice. A few other unfortunates will be hurt in collisions with bigger trans players: 6ft 2in, 15-stone Hannah Mouncey broke a woman’s leg in Australian rules women’s football. Small beer.

Except the idea biological sex is irrelevant, old-fashioned or a bigoted concept has seeped far into public life. Across the country schools are unilaterally erasing single-sex toilets for “gender neutral” facilities, even though this is a breach of equalities and human rights legislation. Both sexes hate sharing bathrooms at puberty, but girls suffer the added shame of learning to use sanitary protection knowing boys are nearby, fearing washing bloody hands in communal sinks. Parents report girls risking urinary tract infections “holding it in” until they get home.

Yet this is where Stonewall has left us four years after it decided to incorporate the T with the LGB. Taken over by extreme biology-denying activists, at odds with thousands of former supporters — including its own founders — who have petitioned for women’s voices to be heard, with its lesbian CEO Ruth Hunt resigning this week reportedly in some despair and Martina Navratilova, the greatest LGBT athlete of all time, cast out for speaking the truth.

apparentlyso · 23/02/2019 09:39

Brilliant post Mentruator

Lizzie48 · 23/02/2019 10:06

She spoke about it way back in 1984, in her autobiography 'Being Myself'. It wasn't the first time, as she spoke about the prejudice she faced. Fans used to support her rival, Chris Evert, as they wanted a'real woman' to win.

I remember that the commentators used to struggle with it, they referred to Judy Nelson as her 'friend'.

Lizzie48 · 23/02/2019 10:10

She was always very brave, she would have had to be to defect to the USA from Czechoslovakia, as it was back then.

It's not at all surprising that she's the one who has spoken out in this case.

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