To be annoyed at The Guardian largely because it is such a dump solution - private schools

[Dlwch276]

So as part of their recent excessive coverage of a book which attacked the private school system (written by someone who went to private school) The Guardian has suggested adding VAT to school fees.

Asides raising more money via tax i don't see how this would make the system fairer? From what I've seen the logic is that parents who are motivated to pay £20k+ on fees would force state schools to improve if their children attended them. Mumsnet is full of posters at their wits ends trying to affect change at their local state schools. No-one that I've met at our small private is wringing their hands that the local state schools are terrible and that this gives their children extra advantage.

Surely to improve educational equality either we all need to pay more tax to change class sizes or poorer students need better access to private education. In NZ private schools receive the same student allowance as state schools - wouldn't this be a better solution for students not able to access private education? For everyone to sit the entrance exam and then private schools to have to accept the student allowance as fees for those who can't afford it?

The igcse was seen as more rigorous before the new GCSE. Most private schools are changing back to GCSE now that isn't the case (ours changed maths back last uear)

They don't have to game the system to get great GCSE results!

gamerwidow

Frankly, no. Some state schools - often those which are selective and/or in extremely affluent areas - are already excellent, and those are the ones which will be accessed by any wealthy MPs. This already happens among MPs who want to sell themselves as non-elitist.

To say that this will motivate MPs to make improvements across ALL schools is simply inaccurate. They won't need all the schools to be good. Just the one that little Anastasia goes to.

"The igcse was seen as more rigorous before the new GCSE"

It might have been, but it really wasn't in practice.

It as easier than the previous reformed GCSEs.

"They don't have to game the system to get great GCSE results!"

Except they do.

That's why people pay for the privilege of going there, which is essentially gaming the system.

I think that's probably a matter of opinion. Anyway, GCSE results are far, far better at the private school than at our state school so I doubt very much they need to make them easier! They are getting hugely better results.

I think when private school parents sneer at state school patents for feeling envy it is a perfect illustration of all that is wrong with the class system.
At my private school the students used to throw coppers at the state school kids. Nice.
I went to state school before private btw. Prefered it.

Buying something that's available to buy isn't "gaming the system" that's not what it means!

Boris You don't know what you are talking about. Sorry. The new reformed GCSE is based upon the more rigorous IGCSE as it is final exam only, and prepares students better for ALevel. The old GCSE was so easy, it was not fit for purpose.

Many private schools have moved to the new GCSE since they have now upped the difficulty. Our local private school achieved 75% of it's grades at 9, so still way outperform the state sector. Do you still think they therefore have an easy option. You can't have it both ways.

FYI, the new 9-1 IGCSE's have also been reformed, so are therefore still as rigorous as they always were.

"Boris You don't know what you are talking about. Sorry"

I really do.

Lots of state schools used to game the system using English IGCSE to make sure that their students got the English and maths of the 5 A to C because the IGCSE contained speaking marks whilst the last reformation of GCSE english took it away,.

"The old GCSE was so easy, it was not fit for purpose. "

Which is why results with the new GCSE results are broadly in line with the previous ones in terms of outcomes.

,"so still way outperform the state sector. "

Outcomes are not comparable for a whole load of reasons. Mainly the privileges being bought contribute greatly to these set of results.

Surely this will just widen the divide and mean private schools are reserved for the rich?
therefore the idea that we need people from more varied backgrounds to attend to go into politics, law etc etc will be even more difficult.

Also where do you draw the line? Are uni fees exempt?

Yes it can be a luxury but sometimes a necessity for certain children who aren't always accommodated in state school. Those parents are already paying tax and generally on a higher scale, and not using this by paying to send private, so in a way it's a double the tax?

Sorry Boris but you are wrong

I'm really not.

Oh btw, most public schools are still using the old IGCSE not the reformed version.

Would it be legally possible to charge VAT on one sector of education ie: "private" and not on others, as a pp has stated.

PP has said you could exempt pre-school. But then what about adult education, tutoring, music, dance, acting, drama. What about University fees? Masters and PHD's are elitist, let's add VAT to them as well.

I just cannot understand why anyone, anywhere, would punish the aquisition of education by the mere fact that you are directly paying for it.

"Surely this will just widen the divide and mean private schools are reserved for the rich? "

They are anyway!

I have worked in state schools and independent schools. They are light years away from each other at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

I work my arse of as a teacher and my husband works long and hard hours. There is no way we could afford to send our children to private school. Like the parents of 90% of children in the country. It is disgusting to think that these children will get an inferior education as a result.

Buying a superior education for your children is not the same as buying a superior car. I can't provide answers for the technicalities but I wish the same as other PPs - that independent schools would just disappear, I cannot think of one reason why the children of the better off should get better education or opportunities than children of parents of lesser off.

Look at Scandinavia. There are no independent schools there. These schools are not a "right" and just a reflection of an unequal society. An expression I heard was - to succeed in the UK you need to chose your parents carefully.

Note that I am not judging any who sends their kids to private school. The UK is a highly unequal society and some will do what they think is best for their families.

Yes privilege is being bought. How does privilege help you get 8s and 9s at GCSE? Do you mean small class sizes, longer days, more rigourous teaching and a schoolwide culture of wanting to do well? Something must be happening to raise those grades other than the rich parents bribing the exam boards

"But then what about adult education, tutoring, music, dance, acting, drama. What about University fees? Masters and PHD's are elitist,"

Argument ad absudurdum and a slippery slope ( gosh do they not teach critical thinking at these schools), all of these things are much more within the grasp of your ordinary person than private education, nor are they granted VAT exemption because of questionable charitable status,.

I think that people who buy health insurance/choose private schools should be given a tax break on the cost. To charge even more is ludicrous. They are already saving the country thousands of pounds and alleviating pressure on stretched health and educational resources. They should be given a tax break to encourage more parents to do same and make it more affordable for all to further alleviate pressure on state system...or the country could just choose to invest more in education, with more decent state schools so parents have a proper choice.

Boris - Wrong again.

There are no unreformed IGCSE's available any more.

Also, your previous note about the state schools using an easy English IGCSE. That was a specific board, generally NOT used by private schools. We didn't have ANY coursework at all in our GCSE's either 6 years ago, or this year.

"How does privilege help you get 8s and 9s at GCSE? Do you mean small class sizes, longer days, more rigourous teaching and a schoolwide culture of wanting to do well?"

If you don't undestand how buying the privilege leads to better grades then your education was wasted on you.

The assumptions you've made here are laughable btw and insinuates that the state system doesn't have these things.

Well dds private school welcomes rigour. They'll be doing whatever the hardest gcses are, if that really matters. They do igcse eng lit and it's the Cambridge 1-9

in our IGCSE's

"There are no unreformed IGCSE's available any more."

There were last year, and the current year 11 will still be sitting them.

Boris I have two in the state system. Massive classes, disruptive kids and over worked teachers. Lovely teachers but they just don't do as much work as they do at dds private school . She works really really hard. She's set a huge amount of work. They are not set a quarter of the work dd is.