To be annoyed at The Guardian largely because it is such a dump solution - private schools

[Dlwch276]

So as part of their recent excessive coverage of a book which attacked the private school system (written by someone who went to private school) The Guardian has suggested adding VAT to school fees.

Asides raising more money via tax i don't see how this would make the system fairer? From what I've seen the logic is that parents who are motivated to pay £20k+ on fees would force state schools to improve if their children attended them. Mumsnet is full of posters at their wits ends trying to affect change at their local state schools. No-one that I've met at our small private is wringing their hands that the local state schools are terrible and that this gives their children extra advantage.

Surely to improve educational equality either we all need to pay more tax to change class sizes or poorer students need better access to private education. In NZ private schools receive the same student allowance as state schools - wouldn't this be a better solution for students not able to access private education? For everyone to sit the entrance exam and then private schools to have to accept the student allowance as fees for those who can't afford it?

"I think that people who buy health insurance/choose private schools should be given a tax break on the cost"

Well should people who don't have children not have to pay? There are all sorts of things people could be given an exemption on for various reasons. They aren't because this is not how taxation works.

Essentially you are saying that the wealthiest should be given tax breaks whilst those who don't have the income to even consider affording these things should not.

“Yes privilege is being bought. How does privilege help you get 8s and 9s at GCSE? ”

1. Selection
2. A comfortable home. 3)No financial worries
3. Acess to books
4. The self confidence privilege brings. I could go on.

I don't think private school parents should get tax breaks it has to be said.

Privilege is bought, not earned. The top grades are a result of the privilege bought not innate ability or quality.

“I don't think private school parents should get tax breaks it has to be said.“
They do already, hence the charitable status discussion.

Oh Boris.... stop. I have a year 11 studying IGCSE's, they are all reformed 1-9's.

I'm going, it is exhausting arguing with someone who doesn't do their research properly.

I'm sure the majority of kids in my dss state school class have a comfortable home and access to books. There's a goodish library at the school for a start. Coulndt comment on the financial worries but children on private school on full bursaries are probably similar.

Yes there are reasons why good private schools tend to do significantly better than state schools, which is why parents pay to use them.

"I'm going, it is exhausting arguing with someone who doesn't do their research properly."

Your experience is not universal, there are still some unreformed 1-9 GCSEs being studied by private school students.

If you can't understand this you really are fecking stupid.

Boris you aren't making sense

There are tax breaks for private school parents?? Do you mean not paying Vat on fees? Doesn't that mean everyone buying anything at state school (trips, school meals) is also getting a tax break?

"There's a goodish library at the school for a start."

would you like to go compare the resources at the Private school to the state?

There are reasons that people pay for private education, the privileges bought are what leads to higher attainment.

Shall we talk about private schools being allowed to offrole kids? Or not enter them for exams?

How about the ones that have two different registrations for kids, one which is the official one, and one which is the "college" or such like so the headline results look amazing, whilst the others are buried.

"There's a goodish library at the school for a start."

would you like to go compare the resources at the Private school to the state?

There are reasons that people pay for private education, the privileges bought are what leads to higher attainment.

Shall we talk about private schools being allowed to offrole kids? Or not enter them for exams?

How about the ones that have two different registrations for kids, one which is the official one, and one which is the "college" or such like so the headline results look amazing, whilst the others are buried.

"Do you mean not paying Vat on fees? Doesn't that mean everyone buying anything at state school (trips, school meals) is also getting a tax break?"

Private school is a luxury good that you choose to consume.

It is a legal requirement to send your child to some sort of schooling. Oh and private schools have VAT free trips and schools meals too, that can remain.

I cannot think of one reason why the children of the better off should get better education or opportunities than children of parents of lesser off
Do they rey though? The thing is no one having gone to a comp could say for sure they would have done better in private schooling (especially considered as nothing more than that general term) and vice versa. We don't know.

My DD went to a good local primary school. After that, her and her friends went to different secondary schools, with different ratings, two went to private schools, and then to different stste 6th forms/colleges and private 6th forms.

There is no correlation with their A levels results with the school they atte des nor the choice of studies at Uni. Those who had the highest SAT results after year 6 tended to be the one who did best at A levels but not forcibly at GCSEs. One who scored on the lower side at year 6 had one of the highest A levels despite going to a much below national average college and taking some of the hardest A Levels.

I really don't think the outcome of pupils is as black and white as it's make up to be as there are many more factors going in to it. For one, parents who make huge sacrifices to pay for their kids to go to private schools are likely to expect more and therefore ensure their kids work harder and are more dedicated to their studies and would found they would have done just as well as their local comp putting in the same dedication.

“Yes there are reasons why good private schools tend to do significantly better than state schools, which is why parents pay to use them.”
Yes. selection.

Nobody in their right mind would pay school fees tor results alone. The sort of children who do well at private school would do equally well anywhere. People pay private school fees for all the other “stuff”.

The sort of children who do well at private school would do equally well anywhere

I would have completely agreed with you u til my dd went to private school. She didn't get in on her academic results but she's very good at something that she got a bursary and scholarship for. Her academic results have absolutely shot up. She is so driven and motivated. I just couldn't see that happening at her previous school but who knows. She certainly wouldn't be doing her "thing" at such a high level.
Tbh it sounds trite but kids tend to do well where they are happiest!

This discussion is bizarre.

I can understand the argument that there should be no private schools full stop because they are elite and increase inequality, buy privilege etc

What I don't understand is people making those arguments and then saying but hey, that's not possible so let's just make them more expensive, this making them more elite, more inaccessible, greater wealth Divides and removing the one, tiny element in the system that allows for normal people of normal means to attend.

Of course not enough people get nurseries, and those nurseries are not enough. But the answer to not enough people having access isn't to remove all such access entirely!

The argument surely is either get rid entirely, or make them MoRE accessible, not less!

In general the results from private schools ( and grammars) are only ever so slightly higher than they would be from an OFSTED rated good school ( 0.3 of a grade according to the Sutton Trust) and no difference from an outstanding school.

However, in general, private schools do not have as many students with varying needs, and different abilities. So comparing overall top line results is inaccurate.

"That's not possible so let's just make them more expensive, "

That's not the point, what the argument is, is that private schools parents are given a tax break for going to them, this should not be allowed, hypothectation of this tax could be used to improve state schools

It's not a tax break though. It would only be a tax break if all other educational activities were taxed but private schools weren't. That would then be a specific concession to private schools. The situation is that education is not taxable at all.

It is a tax break.

Private schools are VAT exempt because of their charitable status, not for the same reasons that other educational activities are.

@remain Finally had a chance to check back in and where the argument has gone doesn't really make sense to me... Parents but privilege in all kinds of ways. We couldn't afford a £2 million house to be in the catchment for the decent state school - I'm noy annoyed at the privilege of those parents. All state schools need to be better - that's not my job as a parent, that's thr job of government and the ocal authority and school leadership. Corbyn/ The Guardian had zero sensible suggestions - it's lazy thinking.

Also in terms of Corbyn/ labour/ The Guardian - I don't believe for a second that they are above using their connections to benefit their children. Seems like they just want the ladder pulled up.

Boris bogtrotter. Education activities are exempt, therefore private education would be exempt with or without charitable status, as I understand it.

Dlwch267 sorry but I don't really understand what your post has to do with the comments I have made on this thread. perhaps you have tagged the wrong poster?

If you can't understand this you really are fecking stupid

Nice.

And I suppose your experience is universal too. Where are you getting all your inside information from? Personal experience I hope.