To be annoyed at The Guardian largely because it is such a dump solution - private schools

[Dlwch276]

So as part of their recent excessive coverage of a book which attacked the private school system (written by someone who went to private school) The Guardian has suggested adding VAT to school fees.

Asides raising more money via tax i don't see how this would make the system fairer? From what I've seen the logic is that parents who are motivated to pay £20k+ on fees would force state schools to improve if their children attended them. Mumsnet is full of posters at their wits ends trying to affect change at their local state schools. No-one that I've met at our small private is wringing their hands that the local state schools are terrible and that this gives their children extra advantage.

Surely to improve educational equality either we all need to pay more tax to change class sizes or poorer students need better access to private education. In NZ private schools receive the same student allowance as state schools - wouldn't this be a better solution for students not able to access private education? For everyone to sit the entrance exam and then private schools to have to accept the student allowance as fees for those who can't afford it?

Private school supporters always come up with loads of reasons why they shouldn’t relinquish their charitable status or pay VAT. Very rarely do they honestly say “I don’t want to fork out any more money”

Private school supporters always come up with loads of reasons why they shouldn’t relinquish their charitable status or pay VAT. Very rarely do they honestly say “I don’t want to fork out any more money”

SOME private school supporters....

One way of reducing inequality is to teach the same material everywhere in the country at the same time and sit the same exams. Someone said the system in France is a bit more like that - but just hearsay.

What do people think about the variation in state schools? Perhaps a lottery system of admission with certain quotas for socioeconomic grouping? Might avoid postcode lottery/academic selection.

I really do wish people would stop peddling this idea that those of us who go private do so in order to avoid the ‘plebs’. (Somebody else’s term, not mine.) In densely populated areas of cities there is a healthy mix of all socio-economic / ethnic groups and when schools are run well and the catchment is in a truly multicultural area you get what you would hope to see in society at large. However - and IME - what one cannot remedy is recalcitrant, ideology dependent management staff. Nor can you change what is sometimes a frightening level of parental disengagement. For example, in my DC’s precious school, sport could not happen without enough parents volunteering to accompany children. Parents would duly sign up. But seldom frequently enough, and it occurred to those of us who did commit to it on a regular basis that we all worked and managed it, while the parents who did not work could not be bothered. There were not enough volunteers on a worryingly regular basis. When we pressed the head on this and suggested alternatives, or even a willingness amongst those of us who could afford it to pay for an assistant for this activity, it was met with absolute resistance. Imagine. A state school with a small group of very committed parents, desperate to make it work, always thinking of different fundraisers etc with a head could give not give a shit because it went against their ideology.
Moreover - and this was a wake up call for me as someone who had always been pretty left of centre - there is only so much staff and schools can do anyway. What horrified me was how little a shit was given by some parents about their childrens’ education or behaviour - and these parents came from all walks of life. It was pretty demoralising.
And so, that is why some of us move to the private system, at quite some financial sacrifice, and sometimes against what we had always imagined we felt about education.
But that is ideology for you. Look at what it has done to the mess that passes for our political landscape in this country at present. As we grow up, hopefully we realise that you cannot apply a one size fits all political view across a very complex issue and that if you abolish or penalise the private school system, for example, you are effectively punishing people for having choice or wanting choice.
I do wish these awful goading education threads would die a death because they are really quite mean and just get people judging one another at either end. At the end of the day, most people just want to do what is right for their children.

“I really do wish people would stop peddling this idea that those of us who go private do so in order to avoid the ‘plebs’. “

But some parents think exactly like that. Well, I have never heard or seen the word plebs used (except by local private school pupils about / to state on the local bus), but there are assumptions made about schools that serve council estates as well as roads of private housing, references to EAL, FSM, racial mix. The determination to perceive a school as ‘rough’ and avoid it, the assumption that a boy who played violin will be ‘eaten alive’, all without looking at the school and disregarding excellent results.

I don’t disagree with the other things you say, Woof but there is a class / social factor as well.

Newsflash: state schools aren't perfect, lots of people who send their kids to state schools aren't perfect, all of us know this. Only some will choose to buy their way out. Should they be paying tax on what is a non essential personal choice? Yes

“ do wish these awful goading education threads would die a death because they are really quite mean and just get people judging one another at either end.”

I don’t think there is anything goady or judging in saying that private schools should not benefit from tax breaks. Or that private schools give privileged children more privilege. However, I do think talking about paying school fees in terms of “sacrifice” is practically a definition of goady!

A £10,000 year school (the average price in the North West) is a totally different entity to a £40, 000 or even a £20,000 pound school. I think 20% VAT on school fees would cause significant problems in the North West of England for private schools located there.

I realize the South East and London is a 'foreign' country to anyone like me who lives further north than Peterborough. However the ignorance from Southern based posters about finances lifestyles and educational opportunities outside their bubble continues to astonish me.

The biggest damage done to the 'North' was done by the Left and not the right, with the wholesale destruction of the best model for social mobility . The abolition of northern grammar schools.

Why can't people tell the truth if a a school would eat a 'violin' playing boy alive ,why cannot this not be said. Secondly if a schools cohort is plagued by feral teenagers why is it politically unacceptable to point this out.

Why can this not be said...

Handay - do you think people who buy their houses near a good school are buying their way out too? I guess there is stamp duty on a house - not vat though...

“Why can't people tell the truth if a a school would eat a 'violin' playing boy alive ,why cannot this not be said. Secondly if a schools cohort is plagued by feral teenagers why is it politically unacceptable to point this out.“
You can say both those things. If they are true, and not just anecdote or speculation or scaremongering or based on 25 year old experience. Which they often are.

I'm not talking about people's house buying choices. Or any other decisions that people may make in the course of their lives, for whatever motives. I'm talking about the choice to buy private education, which I believe should be taxed.

And if that means fewer private schools, good. There shouldn't be any anyway.

*“higher house prices in locations of good schools?“

I’d love to see some proper research into how big a problem this actually is.*

According to my BIL, houses that are in the catchment area of Tunbridge Wells Independent Girls Grammar School fetch 10-15% more than comparable houses a couple of streets further out. He researched this carefully before deciding how much to spend extending their house.

Someone else I know who lives in the TWIGGS catchment built a granny annexe on their house, but granny died before it was finished. People have offered them £1,000 a month to "rent" the annexe for a year so that they can get a daughter into TWIGGS.

Buying a house in an overpriced area to secure a school place is ssentially the same. It's payment to secure the schooling you want, only available to some (fewer than those who go private, as you won't find employer etc stumping up as happens or tens of thousands in private sector, including payments by the government - mainly social services, MOD and some OG)

You may want to exclude it from this thread, but that doesn't make it any less a way of purchasing the education you want. I think that it does amount to the same thing. Buying privilege.

It's perhaps one form of privilege. There are lots of expressions of privilege. We are talking about one particular expression on here which is private education. Not house prices, not pony lessons, not household staff but private education. Paying for which should be taxed. And like I said, if that means some private schools go to the wall: good.

The ideal thing would be a voucher system or capping the private school fees. This way it wouldn't be out of reach of general public

“Why can't people tell the truth if a a school would eat a 'violin' playing boy alive ,why cannot this not be said. Secondly if a schools cohort is plagued by feral teenagers why is it politically unacceptable to point this out.

Sorry- that was a random post!

“This way it wouldn't be out of reach of general public”

What do you mean by “the general public”?

TWGGS is a state grammar not an independent. The info about house prices is correct though. There was a property feature in the Times covering this a year or two back.

I'll say it. I don't want to pay 20% extra on DD's school fees, when the main reason she's in a private primary is because the govt didn't plan properly for school places in our area and the state admissions system doesn't take account of working and commuting patterns. I was looking at the likelihood of giving up my teaching job (in a state school) if I'd left it up to the govt. We were in a blackspot with no places at all, partly thanks to religious criteria. We're not the only ones in this position. Private schools take wrap around provision seriously. They have to!

From an accountancy point of view, adding VAT on fees would likely only close small schools or those precarious financially. The rich would pay the higher fees, most bursaries would go but the school could offset VAT on purchases (which charities can't do). People like me would have to work in an independent to get the fee discount I expect.

The system is completely rubbish but I strongly disagree that one size will ever fit all and I try not to blame people for acting rationally within it (not fraud or lying though!)

I really do wish people would stop peddling this idea that those of us who go private do so in order to avoid the ‘plebs’.

Some people do go private for this reason.

My DC are in a private primary school. Reasons for going private have come up in conversation occasionally.
Most of the parents talk about how the educational aspects of the private school vs the state options open to them compare. There’s a few who also say the private school, with it’s good wrap around care, works out cheaper than hiring a nanny.

But there’s one or two parents who’ve openly said that they wanted to send their DC to private school because they didn’t want their DC mixing with the children going to their local state schools.
The parents saying this are in the minority at our school, but they do exist.

I really do wish people would stop peddling this idea that those of us who go private do so in order to avoid the ‘plebs’.”
I wish people would stop denying that this is a factor for some when going private or aiming at grammar schools.

Bertrand. Which is the greater evil for you private or grammar schools !

However, it important we understand the distinction between Northern Private Schools which are just a consequence of political destruction and the mainly Southern Public Schools. which will built to conquer and divide, and therefore bestow privilege on the majority 'Southern' based elite !
Whereas the Northern Private schools become independent . In order to prevent their school from falling into the hands of the 1970's Trots and their agenda of modeling all schools on the principles of the ''Counterthorpe' Comprehensive School in Leicestershire.

Another bloody mistake ! Were. built ..