To be annoyed at The Guardian largely because it is such a dump solution - private schools

[Dlwch276]

So as part of their recent excessive coverage of a book which attacked the private school system (written by someone who went to private school) The Guardian has suggested adding VAT to school fees.

Asides raising more money via tax i don't see how this would make the system fairer? From what I've seen the logic is that parents who are motivated to pay £20k+ on fees would force state schools to improve if their children attended them. Mumsnet is full of posters at their wits ends trying to affect change at their local state schools. No-one that I've met at our small private is wringing their hands that the local state schools are terrible and that this gives their children extra advantage.

Surely to improve educational equality either we all need to pay more tax to change class sizes or poorer students need better access to private education. In NZ private schools receive the same student allowance as state schools - wouldn't this be a better solution for students not able to access private education? For everyone to sit the entrance exam and then private schools to have to accept the student allowance as fees for those who can't afford it?

We should be doing the opposite of lambasting private schools by encouraging people to send their children private if economically feasible !

I believe the state should actually give a token subsidy for parents who opt out of the state system for independent education. The state system is overrun over crowded and will always be underfunded be Investing in state education to a large degree is throwing fifty pound notes into a money pit,.
This especially if the purpose is to educate everybody equally, regardless of those who can't be educated and drain all of the scarce resources in attempting to.

A Simple fact for those who bemoan the existence of large numbers of private schools, reintroduce grammar schools and watch the demise of private school. Certainly this would be the case in the North West of England, which lost many of its best state and direct grammar schools to the independent sector. This due to ideological vandalism rather than for any attempt to prove the life chances of the dispossessed ..

By investing in state education, the state is often throwing fifty pound notes in to a money pit.

Bringing private school pupils in to the state system would just increase the burden on overworked teachers. It would do nothing to improve the system , it would however deprive a few children of a superior education on the altar of equality !

State schools need better funding. It makes sense to raise it from private schools.

As a very low-earning non-taxpayer, I don't understand the thinking behind constantly trying to tax the well-off more and more. By all means, loopholes should be closed and those not doing so should be pursued to pay their fair legal share, but as we've seen in the not-too-distant past, if you ramp up the tax rate to a point where the government takes most of somebody's earnings, people tend to relocate abroad, so the UK doesn't receive a penny of tax from them, or simply stop working as hard/earning as much.

As long as the wealthy aren't avoiding/evading their taxes, that's the clear deal: once you earn over £150K, you will lose 45p in the £, but you will get to keep 55p. Therefore, the more you work/earn, the more you will get, but the more tax you will be paying.

By way of a sort-of analogy, if the minimum wage were set at £9/hour for the first 30 hours a week and then 10p/hour after that, whoever would work more than 30 hours?

Bringing private school pupils in to the state system would just increase the burden on overworked teachers. It would do nothing to improve the system , it would however deprive a few children of a superior education on the altar of equality !

Who would seek to bring the private system into the state? Make them truly private, i.e. no subsidy at all. Especially the teachers' pensions, as private schools, and their teachers get a massive leg-up by being able to leech off the state instead of making their own provision.

" Especially the teachers' pensions, as private schools, and their teachers get a massive leg-up by being able to leech off the state instead of making their own provision."

That's not exactly accurate. The TPS is an unfunded pension scheme, which means it's a typical public sector black hole.

However legislation means private schools are entitled to use it. As of September 2019, private schools will be required to pay 23.6% of teachers' salary, as against the current 16.48%. This increase will not apply to state schools, which will receive money from the government

This increase will add around 4% onto school fees, over and above inflation.

It seems that private schools would be better without the scheme as the government can just revalue and increase their contributions by almost 50% overnight, noting that the average FTSE100 defined benefit scheme has an employer contribution of just 10%.

There will be contractual/union reasons why private schools may need to keep with the TPS, especially as TPS members are required to offer it to all teachers or not at all.

If it were a private sector scheme then they would simply have closed down memberships a decade ago and replaced it with a defined contribution scheme. However it's not, so suddenly the government have said 'we've been doing a shit job of managing this unfunded black hole, gives us more money', and they will end up paying 23.6%. Fairly obviously they would be better off with a defined contribution scheme paying a typical 10%. The pensioner benefits might be worse, but the value to the school of the extra 13.6% isn't there. As they are in the private sector, it's normal to expect a private sector pension scheme, not an underfunded, over-promised government shit show.

As they are in the private sector, it's normal to expect a private sector pension scheme, not an underfunded, over-promised government shit show

Still, they're not falling over themselves to get out of it, are they?

So much bitterness on here. Are you.like this about people who go on expensive holidays as well?

Given such a small proportion of children are at private schools, surely it would make sense to sort the state system first?

Stop faith schools that receive state funding being selective on faith grounds.

Improve the allocation system for school places.

But the luxury of expensive holidays isn’t treated as charity in need of VAT exemption.

And re private kids flooding the state system. There are so few that enjoy a private education I seriously don’t think so. Many uber wealthy perfectly capable of paying VAT would stay in the private sector and continue to enjoy the unfair advantages a private education gives. The numbers not able to afford it any more would be tiny. State schools are already expected to cope with zero money and big classes I seriously don’t think thry’ll buckle under a small number of an already small number of children spread across the country joining the system.

VAT isn't a luxury tax. It's a general purchase/consumption tax, set by EU who decided that education should not be taxed.

We can change this post Brexit.

But that wouid affect nursery classes if it was school based (14% of 2yos attend ISC schools) and of course puts university fees in the firing line too.

'There are so few that enjoy a private education I seriously don’t think so"

Typically 18-20% of sixth formers are at ISC schools. Now, not everyone stays on for A levels, but it wouid still require a substantial increase to provision for those years.

“Bertrand - If a large number of private schools closed due to VAT hike “

But they won’t, will they? So no need to worry about that!

“So much bitterness on here”

Where?

But many ie the maj would stay in the system. You have to be so rich to afford private paying VAT is not going to make much difference. Yes a few just over the threshold would be priced out but I think that is a good thing. The more squealing re unfair representation of the privately educated on top jobs and Oxbridge the better.

The numbers per year in the private schools near us are small. Many woukd stay in the private system. A tiny number per year group would be spread across the county. Really not onerous to accommodate.

I’m also a bit sceptical about the quality of what these schools do to keep their charity status. How does it benefit all taxpayers, how is it tested for quality? The fact some choose not to do anything and are ditching charity status speaks volumes. Clearly they haven’t had to close over it and don’t enjoy doing good ie heart not in it.

'Stop faith schools that receive state funding being selective on faith"

That's an interesting one. Because they're not state schools and to be faith ones. The vast majority (except the new ones of the Blair years) are church schools currrently acting in cooperation with the state.

If the state said 'no thank you' how would it replace them?

They don't own the land or the buildings, and can't just take over someone else's property.

Open more grammar schools for bright kids from disadvantaged backgrounds.

If rich politicians and unelected influential people had to send their schools to state schools then I fucking bet things would change.

Hear, hear.

I got a full scholarship to a private school. I was well into adulthhood before I realised how much better my education had been than those firends had got in the state sector, even those who went to grammar schools (this was in 11+ days).

All schools should be equally excellent, it's the best thing we can do for our children and for the future of our society.

It's tested for quality by the charity commission, and there have been a number of cases in recent years (many 2000-2010) there was also a whole tribunal about it - which found that the provision of bursaries was neither necessary nor sufficient.

The provision of education is itself a charitable endeavour under English law.

That law could be changed, but it wouid have knock in effects to other charities who cite education as one of (or even their sole) charitable aim.

Because they're not state schools and to be faith ones

Sorry, I don’t understand what you mean here?

So what criteria does the commission use?

scaevola we can change VAT after Brexit but you do know we've had a 'Purchase Tax' in the UK since 1940 so don't be expecting this to disappear it'll just be renamed.
This Purchase tax was historically much higher than VAT has ever been too anyone expecting to save money on this is going to be very disappointed.

I think admission by faith should be stopped as well.

It’s always brought out as a sort of “gotcha” by private school supporters “Aha-how about faith schools, then?” Yep. They should go.

Argh read your comment again EU who decided that education should not be taxed yes you're right this bit we can change, That'll teach me to reply in haste.

It’s always brought out as a sort of “gotcha” by private school supporters “Aha-how about faith schools, then?” Yep. They should go

It isn’t a “gotcha”. I agree, private schools shouldn’t have charitable status. But if we’re overhauling education, surely starting with the state system makes sense given that’s where the majority of pupils are?

I think admission by faith should be stopped as well

Yes separating children by religion is bad for general society cohesion. We need to teach children about all faiths so they respect the differences but understand we're all basically the same.