To wonder how many elderly people in hospital die of neglect?

[Gone2far]

My poor elderly dad is in hospital. Whenever we visit, we're sorting out something. This morning, nobody had made sure he'd taken his medication and, when I pointed it out, they whisked it away. But then told my mother that he had had it.
The hospital is enormous, and you never seem to see the same member of staff twice.
I think it would be very easy for an elderly patient, who didn't have family or friends coming in, to be forgotten, apart from the absolute minimum of care.
Anyway,perhaps i'm feeling this because i'm worrying about my dad. But I know we can't be there all the time and feel helpless

Yet consent appears not to be a consideration when it suits. My dad was promised and an entry made on his notes that his catheter would remain in place when discharged to his care home. The morning of discharge - unfortunately I wasn’t there - he was harassed to remove it. On the seventh or eighth attempt, he stopped refusing and gave in simply because he’d been worn down. He was almost in tears when I arrived because he was terrified of wetting himself. Again, it was the medical team responsible, not the nurses.

@Cherrypavlova, I do understand where you’re coming from. As I said, like you I worked in health for years and swallowed what I was being told whole. Your mum has been lucky enough not to receive appalling care so you haven’t see. It. I have.

Interestingly, neither my dad or I were invited to give feedback via Friends and Family or in any other way. Strange that.

I think a fair few people die in hospital or as a result of medical intervention and it goes unrecorded. I well remember a story in the press of a man who called the police and asked them to attend and help him as he had been asking for water all day and he just got the standard "in a minute" or "w'ere busy" response. Some people in the NHS have a degree of arrogance about them. God help older people for they are saddled with the double whammy of being expected to die as they are "old".

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9370376/Man-22-who-died-from-dehydration-in-hospital-rang-police-for-a-drink-of-water.html

Has anyone on this thread been invited to give feedback via Friends and Family?

No I have never been invited to give feedback. In fact when in hospital I did not receive a feedback form in spite of notices everywhere telling patients they should receive one.

A friend in a private hospital was left drinks out of reach. She was in a single room and it took hours before anyone popped in to check on her. That was not about levels of staffing, just a lack of thought.

my fil received great care.
but I suspect only because

• we both have medical/pharmaceutical background
• we were there mornings and afternoon around our work
• we took in food that he could eat (food was frequently forgotten as he was immobile and couldn't walk to the common room where it was served)
• they needed us for translation as fil didn't speak english

If you want to give feedback and aren’t sent a survey or asked on site to complete one go to NHS choices and record your comments. That gets monitored quite closely.

Deaths really don’t go unrecorded. It’s not unreasonable to expect that at some point a 90 year old will die. We’ve lost touch with our humanity and families (understandably perhaps) want ‘everything possible’ done to prolong a life that is reaching its natural conclusion. That’s not necessarily in the best interests of the person why is dying. It’s about communication but many elderly people don’t want families involved in ceiling of care/do not resuscitate discussions; that is their right.

Every death is recorded and reviewed. Death rates are monitored for every speciality and procedure. Every death is coded against cause. Death rates are benchmarked against other hospitals providing same treatments and any variance is rigourly investigated. There’s (not surprisingly) a high mortality rate for patients who fracture their hips. There are lots of people who have surgery to repair hips. The expected number of deaths is known for patients admitted with fractured hips. Any hospitals or surgeons showing more than something like 1.3 % difference is considered an outlier and investigated nationally.

Any trust with a higher than average death rate is quickly investigated and trusts are required to maintain death rates within very tight parameters. There is huge scrutiny of deaths internally and externally following Shippham, Gosport and the Keogh report.

I expect this to happen to me. I have ASD and am very isolated. I do not think I will have friends or family to pop in as I get older. A scary prospect.

My grandmother died in hospital after she was given a different patient's blood transfusion.

It was terrible enough for my grand father losing his wife of 65 years, but the agony of the post mortem, extended wait for inquest etc compounded the pain to intolerable levels for him.

If nurses are caring for 16 patients at a time they simply don't have time to sit with someone and feed them, give them sips of water regularly, pull up their blanket when they're cold, brush their hair, etc. Some of the stories on here are terrible and do constitute neglect, but some of them seem to think that the NHS is staffed and funded in a way it simply isn't. What you get nowadays is a bare bones service and when elderly, frail and incapacitated people are in hospital the kind of personal care they require is beyond the amount of time and attention that any nurse can hope to give their patients in this time of such acute staff shortages.

So, if your elderly, infirm, disabled or LD family member or friend is in hospital then go in and help out whenever you can and ask other family members to do their bit. Make sure they can reach their water, that it's thickened if needed, that they can reach their call bell, that they have taken their medication, had their pad changed, and that they are eating and drinking. Everyone wants someone else to do it all, but there aren't enough hours in the day to give everyone the personalised care they would like and often need. So do your bit. A small DC in hospital has a parent by their side at all times, because they need it. Many elderly people, particularly those with dementia or complex needs, are every bit as needy of constant care.

I attempted to comment on the trust website about my mother's (lack of) care and told it was too serious to publish. She died on Nov 1st unexpectedly. Her PM had to be carried out in a different hospital because of the issues we had raised about her treatment. We have consistently had to push for information, and now having made a formal complaint it has all gone very quiet. 'Do your bit' is all very well, but it is not possible to be present 24 hours a day, or even for most of us 12 hours.

Many elderly people, particularly those with dementia or complex needs, are every bit as needy of constant care.

which should be provided by the hospital and it's totally not unreaslnable to expect it to happen.
and it's an absolute scandal that it only seems to happen if the patient has an advocate with teeth.

As I said upthread, I did feed back. I wrote a detailed letter of complaint. The reply didn’t address my points. I complained again. We had a meeting which was cosmetic. The entire thing was a waste of time and money.

@Cherry, your faith in the system is understandable but misplaced. Statistics get fudged, we all know that.

The NHS needs a huge injection of cash, I’ll put my hand up for a tax rise ringfenced for it. Then it needs a really big influx of trained HCAs whose job is basic patient care - feeding, personal hygiene, hydration. The improvement would be massive.

jeneau Any nurse should be putting water where a patient can reach it. That is not about under staffing.
Also I agree that if you can your relative will get better care if you visit frequently. But that is not always possible. My mum spent two years frequently in and out of hospital. She lives 200 miles away. I would have been given the sack if I had taken off enough time to visit her every day, every time she went into hospital. And that would have led to our family being homeless.
Some patients are literally in and out of hospital all the time.

I've not experienced poor care of my family personally however prison officers often come back scathing from hospital escorts and patiehts tell me I'm far kinder than hospital nurses which is ironic as us prison nurses are exactly known for compassion!

16 patients per nurse is ridiculous.

Try 1 nurse 2 pharmacy tech and 2 HCAs to 84 patients. 16 patients sounds like heaven!

If nurses are caring for 16 patients at a time they simply don't have time to sit with someone and feed them, give them sips of water regularly, pull up their blanket when they're cold, brush their hair, etc.

No you are quite right but it won't just be a nurse to 16 patients the band 2 and 3s are more than capable of doing these tasks!

Maybe there needs to be a lot more HCA type roles so the nurses can deal with medications and medical things and the HCAs can do the feeding/personal care etc

That is exactly what happens in my hospital and I believe most other hospitals. I was an HCA and we did all the personal care and obs etc. HCAs were rushed of their feet because there still wasn't enough of them. Nurses were still rushed off their feet.

Green have you ever spent considerable time on a ward with elderly and dementia patients? They call for staff an incredible amount of times, often with no need of medical help. There are constant calls for toiletting when they don't need to go/don't go, there are calls for things they don't have with them, there are patients trying to do a runner, patients trying to take their own cannulas out, patients who cannot get up trying to get themselves out of bed, patients wandering around in mischief (like a dear old lady stealing things,pestering other patients, pressing buttons etc etc, there are patients telling you to fuck off, patients having a go at you, patients who insist there is a giant wasp in the bay, patients who want to know if you've let the horses out, patients who think they haven't been given their meds that they actually took 30 minutes ago, patients who become incredibly fussy with food, patients who think someone is staring at them funny, patients who keep forgetting why they are in hospital and are getting ready to leave and asking for a taxi every hour, patients who throw their pad on the floor, etc etc aswell as the standard scared elderly patient who is in tears and wants a hand to hold, patients who are tired and have had a disturbed night due to the behaviours of other patients. And that's all on top of the general medical, care, cleaning and paperwork.

It's not an easy job at all. It is nigh on impossible to be there constantly for everything. As sad as that is and may seem, when a patient is calling you every five minutes for a horse, something they don't need or don't really want then what do you do? It would take immense staffing levels to keep every patient constantly happy. Staff try as best they can, they really do (most!) but it's very different looking from the outside in compared to the reality of working it.

There are also patients who won't 'make a fuss' and will not let anyone know if they can't reach their drink etc. There are also those who say they haven't eaten when they have or they've refused what they were served (and ordered in the first place).

It really isn't a simple situation

which should be provided by the hospital

What you're advocating for green is constant 1:1 care - the NHS has never provided this and never could. If that's what you want for your family member then I suggest you step up when the time comes. No one can sit by your relative's bed holding their hand and helping them to eat a meal for half an hour three times a day. Isn't that a lovely thought? It's also a completely unrealistic and unreasonable one.

when a relative is in hospital a ansolutely expect them to be fed/given food as appropriate. given drinks. given medication when it's needed. given intimatd personal care if needed.

it's not always possible for relatives/friends doing that.

I understand nursing/caring is difficult, but not providing a safe and nurturing environment is neglect.

I agree greenelephantscarf.
I'm a bit fed up of excuses for poor care and neglect. There is no reason a patient should not feel cared for in hospital, full stop. Yes, its busy, staff stretched to the limit, but there is simply no reason a patient should die of neglect.

I am a nurse and went to see a relative who was dying. He was burning up with a fever and although prescribed noone had thought to give him paracetamol. Also he had a dyson fan but it was switched off. He was vey agitated and written up for drugs that would calm him. I turned the fan on. Asked for drugs to make him comfortable and he died later that day. What is wrong when people are left to suffer??

My son almost bled to death following a botched op. They sent him too soon. They nicked an artery and this was inside then sewed the wound up. The pressure of the blood ripped the wound open. I was confronted by my son trying to stop the bleeding the mattress soaked. I had to put pressure on whilst we waited for an ambulance. He was then left in a corridor in a and e, despite it being an emergency. I kicked off and they then rushed him into surgery. He is ok now and recovered thank christ.

Patients who have dementia cannot remember sometimes. Is that not the nature of the illness? It is the nurses' job to carry out an assessment of needs for the care plan. Most of the behaviour described is what happens when you get dementia. I work on a busy ward and sometimes do not even have a cup of tea. But I went into this job with my eyes open. I feel tired a lot and have been assaulted but I still have compassion. I have sympathy gor nasty nurses, get out of the profession if you are nasty andlazy..

Sorry meant to say I have no sympathy for nasty or lazy nurses.