To wonder how many elderly people in hospital die of neglect?

[Gone2far]

My poor elderly dad is in hospital. Whenever we visit, we're sorting out something. This morning, nobody had made sure he'd taken his medication and, when I pointed it out, they whisked it away. But then told my mother that he had had it.
The hospital is enormous, and you never seem to see the same member of staff twice.
I think it would be very easy for an elderly patient, who didn't have family or friends coming in, to be forgotten, apart from the absolute minimum of care.
Anyway,perhaps i'm feeling this because i'm worrying about my dad. But I know we can't be there all the time and feel helpless

No, there would've be no case. It was NHS policy for years. No crime was committed.

Well just a google on LCP shows its very controversial and im sure we haven't heard the last of it. No one should be unaccountable.

@OhTheRoses, you clearly have a very low opinion of the NHS, I've deduced from things you've said that you're relatively wealthy. I do wonder why you don't opt for private healthcare when you're so obviously dissatisfied with what the NHS offers.

I do mostly. Drs and admin are head and shoulders above; nurses just a little. Still seen them chewing gum.

We also have a home in France. Healthcare there, public or otherwise, is so much better.

The doctors are the same, surely? Most do NHS and private work.

Not just the elderly. My teenaged daughter is in an adult ward and no one makes sure she eats, drinks or takes her medicine.

I asked them to encourage her after her next painkiller as she is struggling to swallow and they said no. They are not allowed to force them. I wanted them to encourage not force. Her to drink water.

I am not allowed to stay because it is an adult ward so I cannot be there to encourage her.

Nightmare.

I feel for the elderly too. She is with a group of them now. They are lovely with her.

One of the times my 95 year old Mum was admitted to a ward in the months before she died, I was very quietly sitting with her, holding her hand, and helping her to have a drink now and again, when an awful staff nurse came up and demanded that I leave, as visiting time was over. She was about to take Mum's blood pressure, which she always hated, and made her cry out. I asked if I could just stay and hold her hand while it was done, as it would calm her down. The nurse was so unpleasant to me at that point that I was almost in tears, what with worrying about Mum as well. Not all nursing staff welcome relatives to help family members, I can tell you.

Sorry for the tangent here.

I'm a 40-odd disabled, wheelchair using, person who takes 14 different medicaments a day, over 4 dosages). I've also had many hours on various departments and wards over the past couple of years and the neglect is horrible. People in persistent pain ignored, myself needing wheelchair transfer so I could go the loo taking an hour or more on multiple occasions. Issues caused by not following guidelines. As a disabled person I'm scared of what I've seen, and what will be happening when I'm in my 70s/80s...

I also agree there are good staff, and bad staff. Some of the worst from senior staff. I've also met some truly amazing people who I made sure received my compliments about the care.

It's not just wards either. I was recently left in an A&E bay screaming in pain for eight hours, told IV morphine was on the way, and never arrived despite questioning. Took a dr on an assessment ward who got me oxycodone. Nine hours total.

My ex husband has Secondary Progressive MS & was in hospital for 8 weeks over the summer due to a suspected MS attack & for intensive physiotherapy rehab. On the day he was brought home by ambulance, me & our son were at his home waiting for him to arrive, we got a manager of the new care agency who were taking over his day to day care at home knocking at the door, I told him that ex husband hadn't arrived home yet, he sat outside in his car waiting. When ex husband arrived, he was wheeled in his wheelchair inside the bungalow & the care manager marched in without knocking or being invited in & started firing questions at ex husband who was shattered by the journey home & hadn't had any food or drink since 6.00am that morning, it was 2.00pm when he arrived & he had also missed his lunchtime drugs, he was in pain & suffering muscle spasms due to not having his drugs. The first question was "Do you have a DNR in place & would you agree to one being put in place" Ex husband looked shocked at being asked this & didn't know what to answer, the manager had asked this in front of our 14 year old son. I immediately told the manager that this was something that ex husband would have to discuss with his consultant & GP before he could give an answer, he told ex husband he needed an answer straight away. I asked the manager when would carers be coming to ex husband to start his care package? I needed to know so I could be sure that he would be safe if I left & went home, DS was wanting to stay with his dad for the weekend, he hadn't seen him properly for 8 weeks & had missed him terribly, I got told that carers wouldn't be starting until the next morning. I began preparing a meal for DS & his dad whilst the manager continued with his form filling, I unpacked his bags, put his washing in the washer & got out his drugs nomads so he could take his drugs during his meal. The manager shouted at me that I shouldn't be touching his drugs, I asked how he expected him to take his drugs if there were no carers until the next morning, I got told under no circumstances should I give him his drugs myself ( I had been used to administering all his drugs when we were married as I was his carer then) ex husband told the manager he trusted me to give him the correct drugs. We got told that he was taking his drugs at his own risk & if anything went wrong from me giving them to him I would be liable to prosecution, he expected him to manage 24 hours without his drugs that included muscle relaxants & painkillers ( including Oramorph) On several occasions the carers have given him his nightime drugs at breakfast time by mistake & he has been nearly comatose during the day & unable to sleep at night, complaints were raised but nothing was ever done about this. Ex husband managed to empty the nomads section for his lunchtime tablets himself & took what he was meant to take, he asked me to pour out his Oramorph measured dose & I gave him the medicine cup to take. The manager got up & left remarking that he would return when Ex husband "hadn't any visitors" we both asked for a time & date when he would return, he has cognitive memory problems due to his condition & I wanted to make sure a member of his family would be there so that they wouldn't start pushing the DNR question on to him again. He is only 57 years old & manages to do a lot for himself but needs someone to wash & dress him, get his meals, give him his drugs & put him to bed, plus look after his catheter & see to it being emptied. The amount allowed for home carers to be paid is national minimum wage, allotted hours are cut to the bone, ex husband was allotted 3 hours a day, by the occupational therapists as the minimum he needed so that there would be time for them to supervise him practicing walking & moving around to improve his mobility & improve his quality of life, within a month the council cut it down to 2 hours & then a month later to 90 minutes a day. He is not elderly, just someone who was unlucky enough to be diagnosed with the terrible disease MS. I dread to think how bad care is for the elderly.

What's different in France? Why is the healthcare there so good? I genuinely want to know, not being goady.

My late grandmother didn't die whilst in hospital however she was sent to our local hospital (about 10 years ago now) for something or other, can't quite remember but she had Alzheimer's. It was absolutely freezing at the time she was in hospital and one evening at 1am my poor dad rushed into mine and my brothers bedrooms telling us that the hospital had rang him and she'd gone missing! We all got dressed and started searching the grounds of the hospital, the police helicopter was out along with other emergency services. There's no way she would've lasted more than a couple of hours in the cold. Luckily she was found about an hour after we began our search on an empty ward tucked up in bed.

french healthcare: worker unions that fight for sensible staffing and a culture of 'working to rule'

if those rules are disrepected by employer/management you are almost sure to get one of the famous french stikes.

if those rules are disrespected by employer/management you are almost sure to get one of the famous french strikes

mmmmmmm said with a bit of a sneer? France also has a far higher productivity rate across industry than the UK.
The truth is they have consistently invested 1 or 2% more in their health services every year for decades - UK has 8 nurses per 1000 population, France = 10 nurses, Sweden = 11, Germany =13, the Swizz 18 !!! its similar across numbers of Doctors, Radiographers, Physio's, no of Beds etc

Personally, i thought my Mum had reasonable care BUT only because i complained and went in and fed her regularly, in the community hospital care was better, the staff numbers there were far higher per patient - it is mentally & physically very draining work, Mum was also an ex nurse and toward the end of career couldn't work in the NHS as it was too tiring, so worked in private care.

no sneer, just a different attitude to work/working rights.
plus if wirking conditions are good, staff retention is good and sickness levels tend to be lower as well.

France has a health insurance system not a NHS. It’s much easier to see a GP in France which helps. Also the French take better care of their own health than the British.

Re a comment that Treble9 wrote (those comments are in quote marks):-

"Palliative care plans are made in advance and include the patients' wishes".

Yes this did indeed happen with FIL. However, as he deteriorated further and quickly due to his fast growing malignant brain tumour those were basically shelved as was his wish to be resuscitated (he did not want DNR on his notes).

"End of life analgesia is based upon the best available evidence and regimes worked out by experts in their field".

The hospital made him comfortable but they also spent many hours phoning around various homes to see if anyone could take him because he was bed blocking. It took them five weeks to find the home he died in. Medically nothing more could be done for him but he was far too ill to go home and there were no local hospice places available.

"You'll also find the amount of terminally ill cancer patients dying in hospital has reduced massively"

Ah yes. Yes this did happen too - but that is because the hospital in question eventually managed to find a care home who were able to take him and give him the end of life care in his final days. He died not in hospital but in a respite home (in another NHS trust area so his death is on their records). He being in respite was of great comfort to my DH and his mother. The other homes refused FIL care because he was too ill for them to actually care for, they did not have the expertise nor the staff levels.

It could also be argued that he should have been diagnosed earlier by the first hospital he attended. But that did not happen.

Many continental European countries have universal obligatory health insurance systems which are heavily regulated and state subsidised ie NOT like in the US. The insurance companies are in some cases Christian mutual societies or non-profit-making. So basically everyone pays a bit towards their own health care. But your insurance pays you back, on a sliding scale, depending on your income. So those who are well off contribute more. Those who are struggling only pay a tiny bit and there are charitable funds available to help those who have no money at all but most people do have to pay a minimal amount up front.

Culturally, my Spanish, French and Belgian friends have the attitude that it is right and proper to pay towards their own healthcare (it's almost a matter of pride as it is recognised as very important, "why wouldn't you?" kind of thing). Tbh they think it a bit odd that Brits are prepared to pay out for their pet animals' operations but not towards treatment for themselves or their own family members! And they are not particularly well off or anything, but they feel it is reasonable that they should take some financial responsibility for their own health. And for these reasons, they do value it when they get it. Where I live for example, there are not as many missed appts as in UK and apart from one druggie who was groaning loudly and looked in a bad way poor guy, , I've never seen anyone cause a disruption in A&E. ( Speaking of A&E depts - some over here have 24 hr gp surgeries in hospital grounds to treat those whose issues are not serious enough to be classed as an emergency. )

As a result of these health costs, and higher taxes generally, people do have less spending money available (people spend less generally on their homes than in the UK for example) but where I live, I can usually see my doctor on the same day or on rare occasions, the very next day. (There are many more doctors per patient.). I pay Euros 23 to see my doctor (28 Euros after 6pm and Euros 30 for two appts together) and of that will probably receive about half back because we have a reasonable family income, so approx Euros 12 for a standard appt, but then of course we pay for all prescriptions which are expensive here. Again, the costs of meds are subsidised though.

I was recently in hospital for a fairly serious but standard op. I could opt for whether I wanted to share a room (at lower cost) or whether I wanted a private room (there are no wards). The hospital was very comfortable and you could eat your dinner off the floor, the treatment second to none, meds came bang on time like clockwork, meals excellent. Believe it or not, I got mildly told off for not ringing my buzzer enough! The nurses seemed quite busy but not over-stretched ifyswim and there were many more "helper" staff; cleaners, food services, general aides than you see on UK wards.

I am not allowed to stay because it is an adult ward so I cannot be there to encourage her.

A really obvious and valid point that I’d completely forgotten in the fog of sleep deprived, distraught memories.
Each time my husband was on AMU and CCU I was able to stay 24 hours, which I felt compelled to do because the standard of care varied wildly with each shift change. He was touch and go for several days and I am certain if I hadn’t been there we would have had a different outcome. At one point I ironically found myself comforting a tearful young nurse as my husband lay potentially dying. She had been drafted in at short notice because of sick leave and there was a freeze on agency staff. She told me that “this is awful. On my ward at least I can talk to my patients. I just can’t think here, there’s no time, everyone is so sick”. Not her fault but she was desperately ill trained to cope in that setting.
As soon as he improved sufficiently to be moved to the specialist ward at a different hospital, I was restricted to very limited visiting, 2 hours afternoon and evening, even though he was initially incapable of doing anything useful for himself. The care on the specialist wards was much more consistent and of an altogether better standard than the critical units though and I didn’t have the same concerns at all. I felt bad leaving at first but was almost relieved to be told to. I was exhausted by then and I could see he was in competent hands.
It’s bizarre that the units with the sickest people seem, at least in our trust, to have the least continuity of care.

Really concerning that people on here who are currently working on elderly wards are stating there is nothing that can be done if a patient refuses food or drink or medicine.

There is a whole legal framework about this in the mental capacity act 2005. If someone lacks capacity to make a decision then decisions should be made in their best interests.

It is scary if people responsible for delivering care are not aware of this.

France has a system where people pay about 8% of income and employers 13%. Patients also pay a contribution.

When you see a doctor or have medical treatment a percentage of the cost – usually about 70 percent of doctors’ fees and 80 percent of hospital costs – will be reimbursed for most people through the French healthcare system, so long as you are referred by your ‘attending doctor’. The remainder of your charge must be paid for either by the patient or through any supplementary private health insurance. This is why many people take out top-up health insurance.

If NHS was funded at the same level, access would be helped enormously.

The difficulty cherrypavlova is that I have qorked out what I have contributed to the NHS since I was 21. Easily done now there is a breakdown on the back of one's tax statement. It's about £350,000. I have used a soupcon of that and been made to feel I must be grateful for shit care because it's free. It isn't free.

To have paid that much to the NHS you’d have had to earn £200k+ every year for the last 30 years. Somehow I don’t see someone with that kind of income using the NHS as it would be highly likely that kind of salary would be accompanied by health insurance.

I appreciate its a fine line and im not saying whats right or wrong. Im just wondering whether in this modern era, there should be some form of informed consent?
I worked in a dementia accredited home for many years and most of our residents chose to have end of life care in the home as opposed to a hospital. I can't speak for what happens elsewhere, but in that home, we worked in a person centred way. This means all the residents had made as many decisions on their care as they could, prior to their deterioration. There was also family input where necessary. In the event of end of life medication being needed, it was discussed with the GP, community nurse matron, family, home manager and resident's keyworker or any combination of those people. And always done in line with that person's advance care planning ( everything they said they wanted to happen in the event of them being unable to make decisions).