To wonder how many elderly people in hospital die of neglect?

[Gone2far]

My poor elderly dad is in hospital. Whenever we visit, we're sorting out something. This morning, nobody had made sure he'd taken his medication and, when I pointed it out, they whisked it away. But then told my mother that he had had it.
The hospital is enormous, and you never seem to see the same member of staff twice.
I think it would be very easy for an elderly patient, who didn't have family or friends coming in, to be forgotten, apart from the absolute minimum of care.
Anyway,perhaps i'm feeling this because i'm worrying about my dad. But I know we can't be there all the time and feel helpless

I know of a few hospitals I would no way let anyone elderly I know, be admitted to. Lack of resources of course is the answer but lack of compassion from staff is number 1 for me

I remember someone telling me that in europe the family have to come in and help, we need to have this attitude here. Family need to go in and feed their relatives.

Of course we can all leave our jobs to do this ? My parents are miles away because they moved and there is nobody to do this for them.

• They also euthanise people in hospital without their explicit consent. A good example is someone with a terminal illness who can find themselves connected to a syringe driver discretely tucked away somewhere and containing morphine or similar.

This is a bit of a myth but I can see why the public get this idea.*

FruitCider - what about Gosport Memorial Hospital? IIrc, its believed 456 people died mainly from overdoses of opiates, with possibly up to 200 more; when they were not terminally ill, but had been admitted for rehabilitation after say a stroke or hip replacement?

I remember someone telling me that in europe the family have to come in and help, we need to have this attitude here. Family need to go in and feed their relatives. Yes, and having worn yourself out by hospital duty, who is going to pick up the pieces when your relative comes home and needs even more care from you?

One thing I've learnt is that the time after hospital discharge is enormously busy, with not just physical care but also administration and management, arranging carers, meals on wheels, being around to let in district nurses. It doesn't do anyone any good to exhaust yourself with spending days going to and fro from hospital.

If family have to go in and help, then employers need to give time off for this. In countries where this happens, far less women work full time or even part time.

I stayed and cared for my disabled DD and did everything I could/was allowed to do for her ie everything except i/v meds but after 5 days of working 24 hours a day with only a few hours snatched sleep in a chair I pleaded with the ward manager to get 1:1 cover in for a night so I could go home and get a night's sleep. Initially it was refused but eventually an agency carer was brought in - only to be taken and used elsewhere on the ward! Having watched this person at work however, I was relieved I hadn't gone home and left DD in their care. But my point being that even when a family member takes over, they cannot work 24/7 and there aren't always others to take over.

Wasn't the Gosport debacle around the same time as Shipman was seeing his patients off, although it's only recently come to light. It's all far more regulated now.

And that is bearing in mind that legally you are entitled to time off work with a child.

I took a week off to care for a relative when they came out of hospital. I was not paid for this week. I would not have been given any more time off. If employers legally had to give paid time off so you could care for relatives in hospital, I would be happy to do this. But it is not going to happen.

I suggest you educate yourself even a little bit.

I havent got the time or inclination to read about Mr Shipmans crimes. I admitted that i knew little about it. Its gone, its done.

If you're going to pontificate about doctors euthanising their patients, it might be a good idea to do a bit of research. I'm quite shocked that anyone can not know about Shipman. Dr, incidentally, not Mr.

You said you didn’t know chapter and verse which is fine, but you didn’t even know the basics! He was in no way a ‘mercy killer’ as you seemed to allude to at first. I don’t have the time nor inclination to read up on it all either but I remember it all from the news at the time that’s all.

I have some knowledge of the Spanish healthcare system as i have family who have lived in Spain for years. It is generally of very good quality. It is common for family to be involved in care of patients in as much as they can do. It may be a surprise to learn that Spanish people also have families and also have jobs and children and other obligations.

Spanish hospitals often do not have archaic wards as we do in second world Britain. The food is very good and if you ask to see the doctor its usually no problem. You dont get fobbed off as if its an impertinence to even request that you enter the shadow of your doctor. They are not off all moonlighting doing private practice as is common in the UK.

Also things like wheelchairs,crutches etc ,you have to rent them or buy them.

And the spanish spend more on their healthcare system.

Everything you post shoes complete ignorance about the British healthcare system. I think we can't safely ignore you.

I have no interest in reading about Mr shipman,, i am not interested. I havent got the time. As has already been suggested in this discussion, many doctors previously/historically took it upon themselves to administer drugs to end peoples lives because it was deemed the kindest thing to do. If we judge them all by todays standards,perhaps we could have many long retired NHS staff in the dock for manslaughter as a minimum.

This discussion isnt about Harold Shipman. For those who wish to read about him ,the wiki would be a good starter. Heres the link.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Shipman

Shows not 👠!

I read the first page. Why do we the scummy public idolise nurses and think we should be grateful.

What. Exactly. Should. We. Be. Grateful. For. ?.

I checked my tax return the other day now that the proportion going to healthcare is set out on the back. I had 8 years off. I have still contributed circa £350k conservatively. Why the chuff should I be grateful for shit care.

Remembers crap midwife who nearly killed ds1 because she didn't realise when his heart beat dipped hugely, something was wrong. Other crap midwife shouted at me for slipping off bed pad and getting blood on sheets.

I no longer think we should idolise the angels. esp when there are five at the nurse station shrieking about hols, parties and the stupid public

My second son was stillborn. I don't blame the staff. Shit happens. You still have your son.

”I remember someone telling me that in europe the family have to come in and help, we need to have this attitude here. Family need to go in and feed their relatives”.

You’re very lucky indeed if you’re able to do this, every day, repeat admission after repeat admission for a chronically ill loved one. This just isn’t possible for most people though, is it?

And the spanish spend more on their healthcare system.

The data i can see says different. The UK spends more per capita than Spain and isnt a million miles behind that spent in France per capita. France is often held up as an example of excellent healthcare for its people. Maybe we just dont spend it very efficiently.

46% of women work in Spain, 78% in Britain. That will make a difference,

I am deeply sorry about your ds2 Also. I nearly lost DS1; DS2 died in my arms three hours after birth at 27 weeks. He had severe congenital heart disease and we knew at 20 weeks there was little hope. His birth was well managed; his older brothers wasn't and might have cost his life except that while the midwife was nattering away the third time she told us the belt was faulty, my DH opened the door and bellowed, I want a dr in here now, right now. Then the head midwife ran and the button was hit and about 10 people arrived. DS was purple and took a lot of work to breathe. He spent the night in SCBU. I have had a bladder prolapse repaired and have recently had a severe rectocele and damaged anal sphincter diagnosed..

Thank God DS survived. It had nothing to do with nurse expertise. DS2 was consultant led as was dd. Very different outcomes, very different care

My Gran was euthanised/murdered using the Liverpool Care Pathway at the age of 93.

She was at home, where she was cared for full time by myself and other relatives 24/7. My mother sought advice about her nutrition and the next thing the GP sent a team of nurses round to our home to put her on a syringe driver. From 20 minutes after she was put on the syringe driver she became completely unconscious and we were forbidden from giving her anything to eat or drink. We were told she had 12 hours to live. This came as a shock because she’d been talking and laughing and eating as normal the exact same day and, most importantly, was not a dying woman.

For almost a week we had to watch her being forced to die. They lied to us, told us she was in pain. She’d had no pain at all prior to being out on the syringe driver. They robbed her of her ability to communicate or have last words.

The medication would start to wear off and she’d come out of the comatose state they put her in and we’d get excited that she was improving and responding to us but when we’d tell them they’d frown and up her does of morphine again.

I’m the only person in my family who isn’t a nurse or medic. My family were experts too. But they absolutely went against our wishes and more importantly, my Gran’s wishes.

She was not asked for consent, nor were we. They just marched into our home and set up a syringe driver. Two of them spent hours doing paperwork but never bothered telling us what exactly they were doing. They just said “these medications are to help her with her breathing and pain” and ignored us when we said that she had no pain or breathing difficulties.

The truth is, she was a frail old lady who was costing the NHS money and they decided her time was up.

I can’t begin to put into words what it was like. How helpless we all felt. What it’s like to watch your loved one being starved and dehydrated and pumped full of morphine and intentionally put into a coma so she cannot communicate with you.

When she did eventually die we were told that we couldn’t raise an alarm for at least an hour because she’d refused a DNR and they didn’t want anyone resuscitating her.

On the day of her funeral, it was announced that they were suspending the LCP over concerns that patients who were not actually dying were being put on the pathway. No shit, Sherlock.

And it’s still happening, just under a different name.

Has anyone who has been a victim of the LCP had their case referred to the police for investigation?

I’m not sure Arnold. All we got offered was a debrief by a GP who had never met my Gran and who wouldn’t accept that she hadn’t been dying. She just kept saying “sometimes it’s hard for families to accept their loved one is dying. It takes a professional to know the signs.”

There’d be no justice anyway. They couldn’t bring her back. Or any of the others.