...do teachers really work that hard?

[User298895613]

I know the general idea on AIBU is that teachers work load is ridiculous, that they work extra hard and that they never never stop to the point that they r all seemingly leaving the profession.

But, AIBU to wonder if they are any different to anyone else? and actually might have it a bit easier? I mean, I also work myself into the ground, am exhausted, never stop etc... But I don't have summer holidays off to look after my kids, and I often work well into the small hours at night.

I'm not saying teachers don't work hard, but sometimes on munsnet I just feel like some teachers kind of spend a lot of time complaining about the workload, when maybe it's just the same as everyone elses, but with a nice long summer holiday?

(Sorry, I appreciate this will really inflame some posters, but it just had been annoying me lately)

Clavinova is not a fan of teachers, I wouldn’t bother engaging

I think my dcs' teachers are great (mostly).

Yes, we do. That doesn't mean others don't work hard too. It's not a competition.

teachinscotland.scot/being-a-teacher/benefits-of-teaching/

Benefits of teaching in Scotland

Working hours
Teachers work a 35 hour week with a maximum of 22.5 hours devoted to class contact time. New teachers tend to work longer hours in the beginning

Holidays
A teacher’s full working year is 195 days – which includes 5 days of in-service training Every year, you’ll get 40 days’ holiday at full pay

Pension
Teachers in Scotland qualify for generous pension benefits.The scheme provides a healthy pension based on career average earnings

@EffYouSeeKaye

You are one scary Fucker !!!

Seriously, if teaching is making you this angry and confrontational perhaps it's time to step away. Obviously though, until you actually do another job you can't have an opinion on what the work life balance will be.

Alternatively, just stay where you are and preach to everyone else how important you are.

Seriously, to the fabulous hardworking, caring teachers well done you all deserve a medal.

To the bitter and angry teachers, put your energy (if you have any left after your arduous day with our little snowflakes) into driving change, or alternatively leave and step down from the pedestal you put yourselves on.

alwaysdancing BEds for primary teaching did used to have low entry requirements in terms of A level grades because they were more interested in the interview. Mind you Oxford used to do EE offers (for people predicted AAA) and emphasise a seperate exam and the interview process too :o

Secondary teaching has required a relevant degree then a post graduate year for a very long time (which is why it's funny that some people emphasise the fact doctor's spend 5 years at university to explain why they earn more than teachers ... Obviously I know medical school is only the beginning of a doctor's training and the first foundation year is also required before they're licenced, then ongoing training as a junior doctor etc. But the university time is similar, especially as loads of teachers also have masters degrees on top of the post graduate certificate.)

CallMeRachel are you deliberately ignoring everyone posting saying they have indeed done other jobs before, after, or before and after teaching?

blueskiesovertheforest

Clavinova Lucy Kellaway's children are adults - one of them is also a teacher

Yes, I thought of that 5 minutes before you did.

I don't think it's about how 'hard' teachers work per se.

Lots of careers require long hours, stress, unpaid overtime, etc.

However, there are aspects of teaching that make it very difficult. In my job in consultancy I don't have to deal with any of the following ...

Being insulted/abused by my 'clients' on a regular basis.
Being micromanaged by senior leaders/government departments
Being rated on other people's performance (whose life, commitment, abilities I have no control over)
Being told I'm lazy by members of the public who think they can do my job.

I can see how all that could grind a person down and I'm not surprised there's a recruitment crisis.

There's also the fact that teaching tends to be less well paid than other professions (however the holidays do cancel that out to some degree). There's no way I'd go into teaching or advise anyone else to.

Clavinova well done

Imagine a really busy, demanding job in admin. Then imagine you have to also spend 6 hours a day in front of 30 kids. That's what it's like.

Haven't read the full thread but read the first couple of pages.
What are teachers paid? It is one of those professions, nursing is another one, that the accepted wisdom seems to be 'not enough' regardless of whether the speaker knows what they are paid or not.

There is no question teachers work extremely hard, and it's telling how many of them are commenting on this thread. Shows how many have left the profession!

I have a lot of friends who are teachers though, who have had long careers. I never heard them complain about their job and they love it.

@CallMeRachel

You were annoying me with all your silly posts. Teaching doesn’t annoy me. I like it. It’s not the only job I have done either. Told you I was amazing

Seriously, to the fabulous hardworking, caring teachers well done you all deserve a medal.

Thank you. And thank you for reminding it’s not worth getting annoyed about things like this. I love my job and my colleagues, but particularly the children I work with. Even the annoying moments are always different and fresh and bring their own level of excitement.

I do get fed up with people who don’t understand my job commenting on it. I think that’s normal and ok and a lot of people would react like that.

Anyway, the sun in shining, the sky is blue, it’s my day off and I’ve had enough of you.

See, I’m a bloody poet as well!

@cathf
Teachers starting wage is £23,719. This rises to about £29,663 after 5 years (when most quit).
For the qualifications required (degree and post grad certificate) plus the hours put in (at least 60 a week term time) I don't think they get paid their worth.
Other jobs are just as stressful but as pp's have said the pay reflects that.

Is that rate of pay absolute or pro-rata?

Have you ever tried teaching, OP? If you have actually, especially several classes back to back, you will know that it is very intense and draining like no other job. Maybe doctors.

I tutor and I am completely spent after 4 lessons. And I don’t have the marking, the planning, the display, report writing and a million other non-teaching tasks to do AFTER I have been teaching all day.

I am eternally grateful there are people willing to do the job in the current climate. I wouldn’t. The teachers are atrocious underpaid for what they do.

Clavinova Mon 11-Feb-19 13:44:03
If it's just like other jobs, why is there a recruitment and retention crisis looming?

Not in primary schools.

Where are you getting your duff information from?

inews.co.uk/news/education/primary-school-teacher-numbers-drop/

Yes I'd imagine many do some work in the evening. I wouldn't count this in with working hours though as with many jobs, additional work from home is required just to stay on top of emails and workflow.

You'd imagine "many" do "some" work in the evening, *CallMeRachel? How about the fact that most do at least 2-3 hours' work during the evenings and at weekends? You quote your husband having to work on a project one evening: does he have to spend several hours every evening doing the equivalent of marking, report writing, lesson preparation and the like? Answering a few emails really doesn't come anywhere near it.

I'm a nq lawyer..salary circa 33k. I get in at 8am and work until 6.30pm-7 on average and more often than not work through my lunch and yes, I've held wee's in for hours when I've absolutely had to leave on time and needed to get through my work load. (Many colleagues work much later than 7pm but i have kids - and because i leave earlier than everyone else i will also be looked over for promotions. When i came back from maternity leave i was described as 'unenthusiastic' at an appraisal).

It's target driven so pay rises aren't a given.

I have a law degree and did the Legal practice course...so about 40ks worth of training over 4 years.

People think law is glamorous. It's not and i wouldn't recommend it as a career, especially if you have kids.

One of my colleagues recently went into the office for 8.30am and didn't leave until 10.30am the following day!!

Yes, London salaries will be higher but you're expected to sell your soul to the devil.

The point of my post is yes, i get fed up when i hear teachers say they work every hour under the sun and then dismiss my comments by suggesting lawyers get paid a bucket load..they really dont.

Being insulted/abused by my 'clients' on a regular basis.

When I taught A-level I was hit with a chair, had equipment thrown at me, and on several occasions some of the bigger boys in my class physically restrained other students who attempted to attack me. One boy threatened to rape me and waited in the car park every night to scare me.

In the workplace these people would have been disciplined and removed, and the police would be involved, but in school they were allowed to remain in class and do this stuff over and over again. Can you imagine walking into a room every day with people who have a history of attacking you? And you have no escape unless you quit your job!

Behaviour is a huge issue. In a normal workplace you aren’t verbally abused, trapped in a room with screaming “employees” who refuse to sit down and keep hitting each other and repeatedly ignoring your instructions. I’d have given anything just to sit in a room and work peacefully, no matter how hard my job was or how long my hours were.

@cathf that is the pay for a full time teacher. For a newly qualified teacher, working say 60hours a week, for 195days plus 40 days paid holiday, it works out at about £11-£12 per hour.

For comparison, the aldi graduate trainee scheme pays a starting wage of £44000 plus company car. Probably similar hours too.

Most professional people I know do a full day at work ie til at least 5pm, pick up kids then do work in the evenings.

Most professional people in that category are paid considerably better than teachers, and don't have to work in the evenings relentlessly day after day. It's interesting, however, that when it comes down to specifics, CallMeRachel, you cite nurses and the police, neither of which would normally be expected to do professional work in the evenings - apart perhaps from revising for promotion exams and interviews, which is very occasional and for their own benefit. You also cite childminders having to do evening work doing paperwork and submitting returns and self-assessments: if you really think doing the paperwork for minding a maximum of six children is in any way comparable to a teacher's job, I'm afraid you're delusional.

Just for the record, I'm not a teacher, but it's not difficult to see the flaws in your argument.

And that’s before you consider the ridiculousness of being punished for other people’s absence or lack of work. You are literally forcing some kids to work and they hate you for it. In the workplace they’d just be sacked and replaced.

Holidays weren’t great either. “School holidays” just means there are no timetabled classes. It doesn’t mean you’re off work. You’re supposed to be there doing other stuff.

Clavinova is overlooking the fact that Scottish teachers are about to be balloted on strike action, and that workload (hint: it isn't 35 hours a week) is a growing problem year after year. There is also a recruitment and retention crisis with many posts going unfilled.

Feenie

Clavinova : Not in primary schools

Fennie :
If it's just like other jobs, why is there a recruitment and retention crisis looming? Where are you getting your duff information from?

Your link says:

Official figures released by the Government on Thursday showed a 0.6 per cent drop in nursery and primary teachers in 2017

Would we call 0.6% a crisis?

How nursery teachers and how many primary teachers?