To think this is not good enough from ds's teacher

[edgedandtaken]

I never thought I would start a thread like this but I am worried about one of ds's teachers and his relationship with ds. Ds is in Y7 and is passionate about this subject. He reads books aimed at adults about it and really does know his stuff. He's a bright boy anyway and I have always worried he may be arrogant at school but have always been told that he is 'lovely' and not in the least arrogant. He can be bloody rude to me about my lack of knowledge, but I think he knows not to talk to others the way he talks to me!

When he first started this subject he loved it and the teacher. At the end of the unit he got 100% in the test. It's a humanity/arts type subject. The class then spent a whole lesson improving their work but ds only had 2 spellings to correct. I thought that was poor, but ds told me he had wanted to read the books in the teacher's room and I told him to take more responsibility for himself and that he should have asked the teacher and/or just read one of the books in any case. I did think it was poor ds wasn't given an extension task, but not the end of the world.

This term ds has been less and less enthusiastic about the subject, which is a shame as he really does love it. He claims not to have learnt anything but acknowledges that it's not the teacher's fault as he has to cover the curriculum that ds already knows.

However, twice he has spotted errors in powerpoints and politely pointed them out to the teacher, who has told him he is wrong. He's not - he has described the errors to me and ds is right. I know that correcting teachers isn't ideal, but ds is adamant that he is polite about it and doesn't believe the teacher himself made the powerpoint (I'm not so sure). However, he is losing respect for the teacher because he has denied what ds knows is right. To clarify, ds pointed out the error, the teacher said no then ds said nothing else but was left wondering whether the teacher knows his stuff and if so why he isn't acknowledging the mistakes and if not, where does that leave ds?

They have just done another test and ds has been given 38/40, which is great, but on the paper there is no indication of where he lost the marks and no targets have been set. They haven't done improvements this time, but ds isn't clear on what he did wrong. I know he's not going to get full marks all the time but surely he should be told where he went wrong.

AIBU to think there may be a problem with this subject/teacher and if so what should I do? It seems such a shame that a subject he was passionate about is now something he is not enjoying at all.

Have you seen the PowerPoints?

@TooManyPaws

It’s James VI not the IV

The authority of a teacher does not come from (pretending to be) infallible, it comes from their integrity and part of that is acknowledging that anyone can make a mistake a modeling the right behaviour when you discover you have made a mistake. The worst lesson the teacher is giving the entire class is his arrogance and defensiveness when his mistakes are pointed out to him.

I am an academic, I have three degrees on my subject, but I would be a fool to think I can never make mistakes and a crappy teacher if I tried to hide my mistake.

I don’t have any practical advice for your DS other than to tell him that he has a shit teacher.

Telling your son his teacher is 'shit' is horrible advice and hardly likely to improve matters. Go and see the teacher. Hear what he has to say about the way your son speaks to him in class and be prepared to listen. If your son is allowed to be rude to his mother he may well be rude to others.

I'm shocked that people don't think your DS should point out errors, nobody's infallible, teachers included. Good on him having the both the knowledge and confidence, please don't stifle it. As others have said a chat with school would be advisable to agree a way forward.

I remember arguing with a teacher aged about 10 when she produced an absolute howler in History - insisting that James 1 of Scots inherited the English throne from Elizabeth Tudor. This was purely English history and I was the only Scots in the class at this English school. I politely put my hand up to say that it was actually James IV of Scots who became James I of the United Kingdom, but was told that I didn't know what I was talking about. I later dug books out the library to show her and she had the grace to apologise.

You need to apologise to your teacher then. James I of England was James Vi of Scotland. James IV of Britain was killed by English forces at Floddon 20 years before Elizabeth I was even born.

It’s not about facts or mistakes. It’s about how one deals with all of it

LJdorothy a teacher who makes factual errors, refuses to accept they have done so when corrected by a student and then takes it out on the student by leaving them to get bored and putting them off the subject is shit. I assume the OP’s son has no choice but to put up with this shit teacher as is the case with almost all children at school, but his pearent acknowledging the teacher is shit will help him tolerate him for the rest of the year.

Well I have an update that probably won't be believed but, hey... When ds got back from his dad's this evening I double-checked with him exactly what happened. With the map one the teacher had asked the class where a particular point on a map was and s put his hand up to answer, did so correctly and was told he was wrong, said, politely he insists, 'but isn't X much further south than that?' and the teacher said no, but it is. So no disruption at all there. In the second incident ds put his hand up to query something on a pp, so arguably he didn't need to say anything in that case.

To those who say if he's rude to me he is likely to be rude to teachers I really don't agree. I would far prefer him to give me the odd bit of cheek than to be rude to teachers. I'm not talking about anything awful, he may say something like 'Mum, have you even got any GCSEs?' when something comes up. If he goes too far I tell him. I've only ever had exemplary reports about his manners from teachers, child minders, friends' parents etc, but if that ever changes I'll deal with it.

And he's not disappointed with 38/40, he just wants to know what his errors are. I'm going to email in a positive way and ask about extension tasks.

It could easily have been a mistake on a PowerPoint sourced from elsewhere. I’ve seen mistakes on ones on the TES Website and in tons of Twinkl stuff. I used to get the class I regularly had on supply to look for errors with me.

Also in Y7 the teachers are sometimes not subject specialists so don’t necessary have a degree in the subject.

I'm going to email in a positive way and ask about extension tasks.

I would try to do it by phone if possible- though understand it can be hard to get hold of teachers.

Honestly none of what you say sounds particularly unprofessional- I think you may have very unrealistic expectations of what can be achieved these days. We currently have staff from 6 different departments teaching English long term. I had to cover a GCSE lesson last week and had no idea what some of the specialist terms meant (I got the powerpoint as I arrived).

Still that doesn't matter to you- you want your son doing as well as possible. Tell the teacher how enthusiastic he is for the subject and ask him to try to stretch and engage him a little more.

had asked the class where a particular point on a map was and s put his hand up to answer, did so correctly and was told he was wrong, said, politely he insists, 'but isn't X much further south than that?' and the teacher said no, but it is

I'm sorry and im not trying to be argumentative so in all seriousness what makes you so sure he gave a correct answer? You ds may have actually gave a wrong answer... im guessing this is a blank map and they had ti guess the location? If so, seems that unless you actually saw the map than you can't guarantee you ds was right. Its nice that your ds is so smart and ahead of the class but please dont let his intelligence cloud your judgment

I think you are always going to side with your son even if he’s wrong and if he’s being a little shit. You don’t KNOW he isn’t, after all.

i think emailing to ask about extension tasks is the way to go. From what you have said you have no reason to believe he is being rude but the teachet will reply to your email and let you know if there are any problems

i dont agree with a pp who said call, email gives the teacher breathing space to put together a response and avoids confrontation.

Your son sounds incredibly annoying. Rude and arrogant too.

However, I think it's empowering for students when teachers make mistakes or need to research an answer to a good question.

"How are your comprehension skills, Bejam? I have said that twice he mentioned an error and the teacher said no and ds said nothing more. Exactly how much teaching time do you think was lost there? He isn't constantly piping up and he doesn't argue when the teacher replies. FFS"

I wonder where your son gets his attitude problem

I've taught at university and tutor a level maths. We can and do make mistakes. There sounds nothing wrong at all in the way your son has questioned the teacher's answers.

YANBU, please don't assume that the teacher your child has for any lesson has a degree or related qualification in that subject. Mistakes are rife, the teacher should have spoken with your DS about it and either admitted it was wrong or explained fully why it wasn't. And there's no excuse for no feedback or extension work, they are the basic fundamentals of a decent education.

I know at least 3 teachers who have no related degree or qualification who are teaching core subjects in secondary schools. I've left the profession, I have no confidence in any of it anymore and will be seriously questioning what to do when my DC are of secondary age.

It may be that the teacher is delivering a lesson preped by another teacher, this does happen particularly when there are several groups learning the same thing.

Are you sure your son is right? I've been corrected by a child when I was right more than once teaching computing (using ppt to create an animation) to year 7 and 8 when I have shown photos of the original Winnie the Poo and Alice Liddell.

Before I have had a chance to explain these are photos the stories were based on before Disney animated them a hand goes up and instead of asking a question I'm told , "That's not Winnie the Poo".

I also get it when I tell them snap chat doesn't delete pictures.

There is also some content that changes, eg acceleration due to gravity is normally taught as 10 m/s2 to GCSE but at A Level it becomes 9.8 10 m/s2. In fact there are variations due to altitude.

Talking of gravity astronauts are often described as being weightless in space when in fact they are in a micro gravity.

If a teacher is teaching a year 7 class and stating something that will be examined at GCSE, so they will be using the value that is used on GCSE papers, if they are teaching A Level then they will be using the terms examined at A Level. In either case it is annoying when a child states you are wrong but more importantly it can be confusing to other children and disrupts the class.

If your son is so intelligent in this subject why not invest in some private tuition or contact your local university - they always have PhD students looking to do voluntary tutoring in the community.

Jeez OP I think people are being a bit unfair and it's a bit sad if that's what people really think. Like the rule being that if you want extension work in secondary you have to ask for it! That's just not true and teachers will know the ability of a class and should provide tasks that are appropriate. If it's not set yet and the baseline data from primary was in accurate, it sounds like the teacher has enough feedback via test scores by now to be providing additional work for your DS.
As for the mistakes, I'm a teacher and quite enjoy making mistakes to be corrected by students! It hasn't happened much and certainly not on presentations (but like you've said perhaps teacher didn't make it) but there are a way to handle these things and if teacher thought your DS was wrong they could have asked him to go away and do some research to show his point of view which it sounds like he would have done!
I'm not sure what my advice would be OP but I'm sorry that your son isn't enjoying his favourite subject. Secondary school can be hard for students and teachers alike so I hope he doesn't give up on his favourite subject!

I’m now thinking of all the children who would love the idea of no extension work, no attempt at achieving more than bog standard unless you ask for it. Do the work, pull out a book and switch off.
It’s not how the secondaries round here work.
It was what happened to me in MFL. I’d lived in the country for three years, spoke and wrote the language and was still expected to potter along with those just beginning. I compromised by choosing a book in German.

Take it up with his head of year or the head of department of the subject.
I've had this recently with DD who is also year 7. Her maths teacher totally misinterpreted a situation where DD was kicked and punched in class whilst she was out the room and had DD severely punished.
I took it to the Governor's as I couldn't get a straight answer out of anyone else and DD was refusing to go to class.
In the end I had her moved from that class to another and she's been far happier and more supported. Before that though the teacher was bloody awful as she didn't like me pointing out she was wrong.

Just because they're teacher's doesn't mean they can't act like jerks if they feel a kid is showing them up.

I think people are being unfair.

The teacher is the adult in this situation and as such should be able to manage his emotions and criticisms wherever they come from.

If he’s made a mistake what’s the harm in saying thank you for pointing that out to me.

Tbh it sounds like there’s a problem with your son, not the teacher. For one thing it’s totally unacceptable that your son is rude to you because you don’t know about his subject - you need to sharply pull him up on that every time.

He also shouldn’t be pointing out mistakes in class. It’s disruptive and rude, and undermines the teacher. You have to teach him to wait til the end of the lesson and address it then, just as an act of basic manners.

Finally, if he doesn’t understand where he is losing marks he should ask for feedback, not just assume the teacher doesn’t know what they are doing. You say it’s a humanities / arts subject so there aren’t necessarily simple factually correct answers. Your son should therefore not assume he’s ‘right’ - there may not be a right answer.

I think these are issues you have to nip in the bud now, because however bright your son is he won’t get far in life if he grows up to be an arrogant little toerag.