To think this is not good enough from ds's teacher

[edgedandtaken]

I never thought I would start a thread like this but I am worried about one of ds's teachers and his relationship with ds. Ds is in Y7 and is passionate about this subject. He reads books aimed at adults about it and really does know his stuff. He's a bright boy anyway and I have always worried he may be arrogant at school but have always been told that he is 'lovely' and not in the least arrogant. He can be bloody rude to me about my lack of knowledge, but I think he knows not to talk to others the way he talks to me!

When he first started this subject he loved it and the teacher. At the end of the unit he got 100% in the test. It's a humanity/arts type subject. The class then spent a whole lesson improving their work but ds only had 2 spellings to correct. I thought that was poor, but ds told me he had wanted to read the books in the teacher's room and I told him to take more responsibility for himself and that he should have asked the teacher and/or just read one of the books in any case. I did think it was poor ds wasn't given an extension task, but not the end of the world.

This term ds has been less and less enthusiastic about the subject, which is a shame as he really does love it. He claims not to have learnt anything but acknowledges that it's not the teacher's fault as he has to cover the curriculum that ds already knows.

However, twice he has spotted errors in powerpoints and politely pointed them out to the teacher, who has told him he is wrong. He's not - he has described the errors to me and ds is right. I know that correcting teachers isn't ideal, but ds is adamant that he is polite about it and doesn't believe the teacher himself made the powerpoint (I'm not so sure). However, he is losing respect for the teacher because he has denied what ds knows is right. To clarify, ds pointed out the error, the teacher said no then ds said nothing else but was left wondering whether the teacher knows his stuff and if so why he isn't acknowledging the mistakes and if not, where does that leave ds?

They have just done another test and ds has been given 38/40, which is great, but on the paper there is no indication of where he lost the marks and no targets have been set. They haven't done improvements this time, but ds isn't clear on what he did wrong. I know he's not going to get full marks all the time but surely he should be told where he went wrong.

AIBU to think there may be a problem with this subject/teacher and if so what should I do? It seems such a shame that a subject he was passionate about is now something he is not enjoying at all.

Actually op I’m a teacher and know some colleagues who would not accept they had made an error.

I don't know why everyone is so keen to jump on your DS. I quietly corrected my teacher when she was mistaken in secondary school. She was also very rude & unhappy about it. I tried to do it as politely as I could but I really do know a lot about this subject, and did then, and am now doing it at degree level. I don't see why my age should have made me wrong then yet right now. Or why I should have to get a PhD to be right about it retrospectively.

She also wouldn't believe I knew all the terminology in an exercise where we had to write definitions to ones we were unfamiliar with. She was even angrier when she made me recite them all and I did in fact know them all!

Some teachers just don't like being 'shown up' while others commend enthusiasm.

Can he try to view classes as a box ticking exercise of sorts, understanding not all kids have his enthusiasm or knowledge, while continuing his study at home?

I'm amazed no one so far thinks it's bad an able child isn't being stretched

He isn't the only child in class and might not have the time to do that.

The rule in secondary is that if you want extension work then you have to ask for it.

I'm pretty sure this is bollocks. The teacher knew they were going to spend a whole lesson on exam improvements and they knew ds had none as he'd got 100%. It was perfectly possible and in fact his job, to provide a task for ds to do during this time. Same thing happened in RE and ds told me he had a 'really cool' extension task to do, so it obviously isn't a rule that kids have to beg for work in this school.

The errors were where places were on a map, and the 'real' name of the country commonly known as Holland. The lesson is history, but the errors factual, not to do with how to answer a question. They're not big deals, but it's the way they have been dealt with that is the issue.

@edgedandtaken I have no advice but every sympathy. My dd told her yr 9 history teacher, politely (at the end of the lesson when only my dds friends were left in the room, that the pictures around the classroom of all the kings and queens of England showed two were around the wrong way on the time line. The teacher actually said "I think you'll find as a teacher I know more than you" but funnily enough, next lesson the pictures had been moved and were then in the correct order. This woman proceeded to bully my daughter for the entire school year.
Having a degree doesn't mean you never make mistakes but being a grown adult should mean that you always have humility.

Well, he got two wrong on a test so he's clearly not better than the teacher at this subject. The teacher's "errors" could have been right or wrong depending on the context and your kid could have jumped the gun. How do you know he's telling you the whole story?

Asking for extension work isn't begging though, is it? It is sticking up your hand and saying 'Sir, I have finished my improvements, what shall I do now?' Yes ideally the teacher should have proactively given something, but the onus is on your DS, at least it is at DD's school.

I know you think he isn't being rude and/or disruptive but this could be how it's coming across.

There is a difference between a child piping up while the teacher is talking and saying "Mrs Smith, that's wrong, it should be France not Germany" and a child catching the teacher at a quiet moment and saying "Mrs Smith, the slide earlier said Germany and I always thought it was France, have I got it wrong?"

You could go in to school, explain that your DC seems to be falling out of love with his favourite subject and could you talk about it; or you could suggest that your DC pipes down a bit and gets on with his work.

He's got a lot more years at school, I would pick your battles here.

When it comes to Holland, whilst the country is the Netherlands, the event may well have taken place on Holland. There are two provinces of the Netherlands which are Holland (N & S).

Obviously we weren't in the lesson but context is everything here.

I remember arguing with a teacher aged about 10 when she produced an absolute howler in History - insisting that James 1 of Scots inherited the English throne from Elizabeth Tudor. This was purely English history and I was the only Scots in the class at this English school. I politely put my hand up to say that it was actually James IV of Scots who became James I of the United Kingdom, but was told that I didn't know what I was talking about. I later dug books out the library to show her and she had the grace to apologise.

So, yes, teachers can get it wrong.

God yes, we absolutely do get things wrong. And have to be able to laugh at our own mistakes, otherwise the kids don't learn that it's ok to make mistakes as long as we learn from them.

I do wonder if this is more about the way it's done.....

As history is your son's passion going forward I would suggest you ask for what they are covering curriculum wise at the start of each year/term so that he avoids those areas in his extra curricular/out of school reading so he learns stuff in class and does remain engaged.

My son has a boy in his class and they all eye roll when he thinks he already knows it all about topics . I am not saying he should not pursue his interest but perhaps encourage him to look at different periods/geographical areas of history than he is likely to study so at least when he is in class it is new stuff.

My DS loves history and we had to do this. Now in 6th form and applying next year to read history at uni.

He was James VI not IV.

Sorry. I’m being a pedant.

I am a teacher and get stuff wrong on occasion. I try to have the grace to accept it.

When I was in comp we had a teacher take us for both the finance element of buiness studies and keyboard skills (rsa typewriting using manual typewriters as 30 years ago). It was a regular occurance for a pupil to correct her on her addition in either lesson. She would say thank you and change it - she obviously knew her ability to add up on the spot in front of the class wasn't great. She was though a great teacher, who knew her subject and had a great relationship with the pupils.

He can be bloody rude to me about my lack of knowledge, but I think he knows not to talk to others the way he talks to me!

I’m sorry OP but the above makes your son sound like a little shit. If he can’t show you, his own mother, basic respect than how can you be so sure he is respectful to other people? If anything, he should be showing you more respect than the average joe not less.

Ime there is nothing kids like better than spotting an error on a PowerPoint and if they ever do it to me (rarely because I am a bit of a perfectionist!) I laugh it off, usually say “oh yes, I deliberately put that in to see who was paying attention, well done!” in a jokey way and move on. If it’s not an error so much as a different interpretation, it can spark a good discussion.

However, sometimes I have had to teach things I haven’t had time to prepare when I am under a lot of stress and I can see that then a child pointing out an error could make me snap defensively, I suppose. A lot of teachers are leaving the profession due to workload stress and it’s possible this teacher could be struggling, possibly having to teach something they are less familiar with and not having any time to prepare themselves.

The lack of extension work in the lesson you describe does sound frustrating.

As a secondary teacher and a parent of primary age children, I am seriously worried about the education my children will receive. All the teachers I know and work with are dedicated, committed professionals who are working harder than they can cope with. I’m watching them get iller and more disillusioned and exhausted and constantly stretched thinner and thinner. I am an experienced teacher and I’m really good at my job, but I am looking to get out as soon a I possibly can and most people I know in the job feel the same. More and more of you are going to find that your kids are being taught by non-specialists, a stream of ever changing supply and stresses out, exhausted teachers who can’t do it anymore. There is a huge crisis in education underway and it will only get worse.

In the scenario you describe, maybe it is the teacher at fault. I know we aren’t all perfect. But the system is buckling and soon all children’s education will suffer and it won’t be the fault of individual teachers.

The teacher is at fault for not having extension work for him.

If the errors were actually errors then the teacher did not deal with it in the correct way. However you'd be surprised how some kids behave and their parents have no idea so maybe he didn't point them out as politely as you suggest.

I'm a teacher. I wouldn't complain about the mistakes at this stage but I would call the teacher and ask if more extension work can be made available and ask where he dropped his two marks in the recent exam.

Most definitely teachers can get it wrong they are only human.
What I find though, are the teachers who won't admit it, make a rod for their own back.
Once children lose respect and tell parents it spirals. A good teacher will admit when they are wrong, it isn't easy but imo part of the role.
That's not to say children should shout out or argue, but this is something they have to learn too.
I told my dd that even though she was right, you don't interrupt the teacher or argue, mine had done the latter.

I’m a teacher, and I disagree with a lot of the comments.
I have been in both positions, as a child correcting the teacher, or not being given enough work to challenge me, and as the teacher being corrected. If it’s the child’s specialist subject, their passion, then it’s perfectly possible that he knows something that the teacher doesn’t. Or that the teacher, time-pressured, got wrong. You need to verify exactly what happened and who was right.
He’s Y7. So although he may be able, he might not have the sophisticated social skills to make his point without bruising the ego of the teacher, but tbh, he shouldn’t have to. Nor should he be left unoccupied because he’s ahead of the class.

So I’d go in and talk to the teacher first, calmly. Listen to the teacher’s opinion of what’s going on, ask what you can do, gather information and keep a paper trail of events and meetings. If things don’t improve, then involve the HOD.

I have both a degree and PhD and students have pointed out little errors in my work before. I have no problem with it at all. They certainly don't know more than me but I quite like being corrected - it shows they're actually thinking and as bright as they may be a year 7 certainly won't make me feel insecure!

@Kazzyhoward I wasn’t being sarcastic. I did actually mean he must be very very good at that age, if he knows so much about a subject. There are a handful of extraordinary kids, who do have knowledge like this in various subjects, at a very young age. It’s not unheard of, but means he’s a very intelligent kid regarding the subject that, that’s all I was referring too.

I’m so glad I’m not a teacher anymore.

In rl. In work situations people often say things that you know aren’t quite correct.

It’s 100% how you deal with that situation

It’s a good life lesson to know when to point out an error and when to stfu and let it go.

If he’s a shit to you sometimes and he’s not that nice to his teacher, what does that make you think is going through his head. It smacks of a level of superiority. I have the answer and that answer is right.

Not all of life is all about being factually right. And if he’s in an exam he can use his own knowledge.

If he struggles with getting less than 100% then he is going to crash and burn at some point.

At lot of people I knew who went to oxbridge who were brilliant and perhaps a little arrogant with it when they were at school, massively struggled with being just average and it lead to serious mental health problems.

It’s all about the attitude is basically what I am trying to say.

It's a difficult one. I was taught something incorrectly at school which I only realised once I was studying said subject at university. I suspect the teacher taught the same thing incorrectly for many years after that. As a professional (not a teacher), if i make a mistake I'd want it correcting by a colleague in a professional manner so I don't make the same mistake again.
Don't know How I'd feel if i were a teacher having the same child consistently picking me me up on stuff,But then if the teacher is making lots of mistakes that a Yr 7 is picking up then it needs addressing.
Problem is how best to do that.

I am a teacher with a degree in my subject. I often use other people's powerpoints, there are sometimes mistakes and sometimes i make mistakes too.

I don't think your son is necessarily meaning to be rude but I think perhaps he needs to acknowledge that correcting a qualified professional in front of the class is often going to be perceived that way. He should be encouraged to stay at the end to speak to the teacher about mistakes if he feels they are important but also overlook minor things. I do understand that 11 is quite young to be able to make the distinction but he should avoid staying regularly to correct the teacher!! He obviously isn't shy so staying at the end isnt simehing that should phase him.

He should also be confident enough to ask about those missing two marks and to ask for extension. If he won't then that is something i would suggest an email would address

Dear teacher

DS loves your subject and reads widely at home and as a result of his enthusiasm he is finding some of the work quite easy. Would it be possible for him to be given some extension work to be getting on with at times when he has completed the class task?

Thank you for your continued work with DS,

kind regards
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