NICU staff being judgemental.

[NicuProblem]

I'm in tears. Requested my baby's medical notes after a prem birth. Found a part where apparently they started a visiting log as they felt we didn't stay on the ward long enough, that I wasn't talkative enough and that my husband "rarely visited".

I don't drive and have an older child with disabilities. My husband works and at that time was working night shifts. They KNEW this.

I feel distraught by this notion that at my most vulnerable when I was trying my best I was judged as somehow not good enough.

I actually despair. I wish you had put this in the premature birth section rather than AIBU. You might have got more support and understanding rather than all the judging. So the thing that upset you to begin with is just reinforced on here. Wish people could have some empathy.

I'm glad it says in my notes that we were concerned and attentive parents and that when we were being released as mum it says I had very strong support from DH, but we showed them that. Weekly visits do not

Good for you. You’re fortunate you and your husband could afford to do that - most do not have that privilege. When both our twins were in nicu we decided my husband needed to save his paternity leave for when they came home, except one came home first - he took two weeks off, then there was further 4 weeks while the second was still in hospital. Then nearly two weeks where I had to stay in paeds HDU 24/7 and there was no option but for him to take two weeks off to care for a two month old baby alone.

Sleeplikeasloth - can you explain exactly what you mean by "bonding" ?

And also how and in what timescale you imagine it takes place ?

Raspberry 88, honestly, I think that's that's a bit rubbish too. But if you are thousands of miles away, or your only available job, is one where the house mean you don't see them, then it's a bit crap, but it can't be helped. I'd think it was poor form if that was a conscious decision though.

Deciding that you need a full night sleep every single night, so you don't have time to go and see your poorly child is far worse IMO. With the Ops timings, on the days he works at 3, he could have 7 hours sleep, and would still be able to spend an hour and a half with his child and be at work on time. This isn't a situation where he can't spend time with his child!

He works shifts. All different depending on the day

Seeing her once a week is shocking. I'm sorry, but how can they possibly bond with eachother with such meagre contact?

I didn't meet my parents until I was 12 weeks old. How on earth did we have such a loving relationship? Lots of utter crap on this thread. Par for the course but it is hard to read when it is meanly directed at a young mother who has had a premmie in hard circumstances doing her very best and posted about feeling judged. And then loads of charmers come on and .. drumroll ... judge her.

Also lots of middle class obliviousness to the hard realities of being on a zero hours contract that is your only source of income with no safety net. And don't bother coming back and telling me that you worked down mines 3 hours walk away while visiting your premmie for 12 hours a day and rearing conjoined twins on 2p a day because I won't believe you.

There's a massive difference between not meeting your parents until x point, and one of your parents choosing (because that's what it was), not to come and see you. One is due to necessity in some circumstances, and the other is a choice. Parenting is a relationship like any other. Relationships require time and investment and nurturing.

A lot of people have expressed concern and shock by the dad's reluctance to spend time with his child.

sleep you just seem upset that my husband actually slept. We knew full we would get no sleep once the babies were home. He was maximising our earnings and his emotional and physical state so that when she came home we are able to provide for her.

Realistically what could we do? Change a few nappies and hold a tube. We've got plenty of time to change nappies and plenty of feeds. If we go into rent arrears and get evicted I'm sure it'll be very comforting to think oh at least my husband changed a nappy when she was 10 weeks old.

Some people have to be practical. If you have the luxury to not think like that then you're incredibly lucky and should probably be grateful.

I think a lot of people on this thread are confusing flawless parenting with parenting that warrants comment or intervention by medical professionals.

Would it have been nice if OP's DH had managed to squeeze in more visits? Sure. But it hardly warrants comments in his child's medical records that he didn't.

The sanctomony, judgement and absolute lack of empathy from some posters is sickening. Some people on this thread should be ashamed of their nasty and damaging comments.

The babies? More than one in hospital?

Ds was in only for 3 days and when I read the notes related to his stay, I felt fury too. Apparently I had the "baby blues" and was upset because my bad decisions had led to him needing NICU.

When in actual fact I was diagnosed with postpartum psychosis, ptsd from the trauma I relived on the operating table and severe postnatal depression by the time he was 8 weeks old. Nearly 4 years and another child later I'm still seeing the mental health team.

As for it being my fault...I kept telling the midwife he was stuck and being fobbed off. Unfortunately it took 81 hours from my waters breaking, every intervention under the sun, failed forceps and him being shoved back up the birth canal for an emergency section before anyone believed me though.

However things are still very raw for you and with the benefit of hindsight I think it boils down to " I was judged as somehow not good enough". At least it did for me, my experience in NICU made me try and give ds up to social services because they made me feel like I'd failed on every single level as a mother. I couldn't give birth to him, I couldn't look after him, I was given a time limit on holding him but no one did anything supportive whatsoever.

In the long term though, does what they think matter? You could write to the hospital pointing out that making emotionally vulnerable mothers feel like rubbish isn't helpful in the slightest and that perhaps they need to either explain the purpose of such logs or be a tad more tactful in their choice of words.

sleeplikeasloth you make no sense about bonding. Do you seriously think that baby was sitting in her incubator and saying "I wonder why daddy hasn't visited me today". Do you really think that man out working to keep a roof over their heads and minding their disabled child was thinking "couldn't give a shit about that baby yeah"

Are you happy with yourself telling the OP that her husband is shit and "chose not to" or was "reluctant" to see their baby despite her explaining exactly why he saw the baby once a week once he was back at work. She hasn't posted asking was he shit (and a lot of people have expressed nothing but sympathy for him and her) but you felt it was important that you told her anyway even though her opening line was "I am in tears " . Even though she has said the baby is home and they are all doing ok now. As well as the patronising claptrap about relationships needing nurturing. Do you have any imagination - can you imagine what that time was like for her and for them?

This thread has certainly made me understand why the OP was concerned about the nurses judging her. Plenty of judgement out there.

when he had a bad few days DH stayed in too, the staff offered when they see it was killing him to have to go, even though it's usually only one parent allowed to stay. I'm glad it says in my notes that we were concerned and attentive parents and that when we were being released as mum it says I had very strong support from DH, but we showed them that.

There really is amazing lack of empathy in some posts.

As I said upthread, some posters are extremely fortunate that their family and financial situation was such that they could spend all the time that they wished in NICU/PICU. Some of us have seen at first hand the difficulties that other families have.

@NicuProblem I hope both your children are now well and happy at home and that you are enjoying having them there. I'm sorry you were upset by the notes, but I hope you can understand why it's important for staff to be aware of patterns of behaviour. Please do contact PALS or the unit directly if you feel it would be useful to talk about them. A poster above has also suggested the 'premature birth' forum here (haven't been here long enough to realise there was one!)

When DS was tiny he was very poorly and DH didn't want to leave his side. On the occasions he was popping out to get things we need or to get me fresh clothes from home. I stayed in with him and DH stayed until around midnight each night and was back before 7am, when he had a bad few days DH stayed in too

So smug. Did you just post that to talk about what wonderful parents you both are?

I think OP and her husband did what they had to do to get through an awful time. Everyone reacts differently and her husband was there daily when he was on leave. I am sure they will have no problem bonding now she is home.

OP, I had my first baby when I was 18. He had failure to thrive and was very unhealthy. I spent a lot of time in hospital with him. I remember them watching me closely, how I interacted with him and they even took over feeding him at one point to see if he gained more weight (he didn't). It was awful, I felt judged and like a crap mum. 19 years later I understand why they did what they did but for a very long time it made me feel awful.

I hope you can get some closure on this

If NICU staff write comments re visiting and the amount someone speaks ( which I doubt even a trained psychologist would extrapolate into making a dx of potential PND or think they could judge whether this was the norm for that person ) then they can also record the responses from the person they are commenting on about home and paternal circs .

Exactly. Failing to record context, and failing to recognise that as a party involved in the situation even in a professional capacity they were not capable of objectivity, means those notes were inaccurate and misleading.

Which renders them pointless. Social observations without context are meaningless judgements. Op has every right to be upset.

The NHS workers coming on here to tell her she's wrong would do better to engage in professional reflection on their own practice and its impact. You may not intend to cause harm, but intent is not impact.

I've not said he shouldn't sleep, or should get the sack or go into rent arrears

Just that, based on the timings you have, and him sometimes starting at 3pm, that he could have easily fitted in a visit in his way to work, whilst still getting 7 hours sleep. That not every day, but a couple of times a week, he could have made an effort. That wouldn't have got him sacked, or put you into arrears. He'd have done his job plus slept a perfectly good night sleep. I don't understand why a parent wouldn't want to do that.

OP i think you've had some good explanations here of why the comments were written (ignore the ones with the magic time tree!)
Would it be easier to write to the hospital with a view that you want to help inform from a parents point of view so that someone else doesn't need to experience this? Obviously the notes weren't written with an expectation you would read them but given they can be requested, perhaps more thought should be given to this. Try and do something positive from a horrid experience. It may also be easier to engage this way as if you have a wider complaint with the hospital they will need to be careful in how they reply to you.
I do think it would do you good to talk to someone in real life. It still sounds very raw and you feel you need to justify yourself (you don't) but it will be hard to put it behind you until you can come to terms with this.
I'm sure it felt like the longest 10 weeks in the world but the reality is it is such a short period of your baby's life that really whether you never left or were there an hour a day, it is not what will define you as a parent.
Besides, presumably for half this time your baby should still have been inside you. If you take the same logic i failed to do anything for my son for two weeks as he was 15 days late and no one would ever suggest that!
Please stop reading this thread now and enjoy your family

Sleeplikeasloth it is clear you do not understand anything. Anything. So away with your nasty judging about things too hard and complex for you to grasp.

Sleeplikeasloth

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realise you knew exactly where the OP lives, where the hospital is, where her DH works and all of the transport links in-between. Of course he could have made it.

I'm amazed that there are so many unsupportive, ignorant women merrily piling into the OP. "My husband spent 30 hours a day, 11 days a week at NICU, fashioned a blanket from his own skin and carried all of the nurses from their homes, in his arms to the hospital to care for his child. blah, blah, blah".

OP, you did your very best with the time you had and with the resources you had, shared yourself as much as you could. Your husband did exactly the same. Keeping a roof over his families head is absolutely the priority and I feel for you both.
It sounds a horrific time for your family and not only is it possibly the hospitals fault that your baby was in NICU, but you are now 'judged' by the people who should have been supporting you. I don't know if PALS would offer advice but you could contact them.
In the meantime, could the perfect mummies with their perfect daddies take their heads from their arses and just fuck off somewhere else.

@Sleeplikeasloth you're posts are shockingly smug!

And as far as what 'most dads' do, I'm discounting the first 6 months with my child, as he was fully off, but once back at work, he gave her bottles, changed nappy, entertained her, cuddled her, and did 50% of putting her to bed. Then at night, 50% of all night wake ups, night feeds, helped get her ready in the morning. He sometimes shifts his hours round so he can work in the evening and spend extra time with her in the day, and is constantly caring for her at the weekend. He doesn't just parent for a couple of hours a night. And even if he did, that's a far cry from once a week!

I wonder how EBF children cope without daddy giving them bottles or night feeds? Do you think they don't "bond"?

What a load of bollocks you write!

No one was judging you OP

Raising a concern doesn't mean a judgement, it just means there could be a potential concern really, they need to establish if there is anything to worry about. So in my notes, I might note something and think I'll just investigate it. Then you would have to log whatever it is I was investigating. Then after investigating I might think "actually I can clearly see this is happening" or "this is slightly concerning but I can see there are mitigating circumstances so I'll keep an eye" or "there is a concern I will follow it forwards" after monitoring they clearly didn't think anything was wrong as they didn't take it further. They shouldn't have spoken to you before they established if there actually was anything to worry about!

Medical notes have to be factual, it will just document the facts from what the hospital see. You have to make sure you document everything basically, because if something did turn out to be a problem you've got it there.

No one is going to read those notes and think you were a bad mother. Anyone who does read those notes will be a)directly involved in your babies care and b) read very similar notes all day everyday. To be perfectly honest whoever wrote your notes probably writes fairly similar on all of the notes.

For example a person above said on their notes "patient asked appropriate questions" I might put something like this is my notes to show that there was no concern in this area, and I will put it in all my notes unless there was a concern. It's about showing that I've thought about everything. I will always make a comment on certain things in my notes to show I've considered them but ts not a judgement it's just part of offering full care to the patient.

Its about building a picture, a few of the things you've mentioned might be a concern if other things were present, it doesnt mean that you were doing something wrong. All it means is that for example if you were quiet and not asking about feeds, and then also stopped coming they would be able to look at all three together. So you would document them and then if a few other things come along you've got a good picture of the situation. But if you don't put the first things, which on their own aren't a concern you can't see the bigger picture if furthers things come along down the line.

Honestly OP, no one will have judged you. You are doing a wonderful job, it is hard when you have a baby in NICU and that's without adding other children into the mix. You did your absolute best for both your children and that's all you can do.

@Sleepslikeasloth

Seriously, put a fucking sock in it.