BBC breakfast feature about potty training

[Lizhd]

Was anyone else irritated by the feature on BBC breakfast this morning about children still not being potty trained by the time they get to school?
I accept that if that is what the figures show then there must be an element of truth it however........they only spoke to mums on the issue suggesting that if you are a busy working mum or a mum to multiple children then it is YOUR FAULT if you children potty train late. There was no mention of a fathers in the feature at all. Clearly fathers hold no parental responsibility when it comes to potty training!
(I am aware that not all children have fathers present but in the same mind not all children have monthers present)

It’s just another one of those jobs we have to do as a parent and some parents are either a bit relaxed or procrastinate or make a bit of a dogs dinner about it. So their kids are late getting toilet trained. Nobody dies from it. We all do some things well and some things not so well. There are worse things to let slip through the cracks.

I wasn't really watching the article but it was on in the room. Did I correctly hear Dan Waler reading out a comment that had been sent in where someone claimed their children had been potty trained by the age of 11 months? I wouldn't have thought that was possible!

I tried to train DS at 2 1/2 but he didn't grasp it. I then waited until a couple of months before his 3rd birthday when his sister was at school and I could concentrate on just him and he cracked it pretty quickly - although it took longer for him to grasp pooing in the toilet. But he was definitely trained by the time he started school nursery at 4 - and he has ASD.

I think there is a lot of talk about waiting until they are "ready" but I don't understand how you can know they're ready until you try. My daughter would wee in her nappy. She didn't tell me she had done a wee, or was about to do one. We went to asda and they had peppa pig pants on sale so I bought some. She was super keen to try them on so I thought "whats the harm?".
So she weed in the pants and occasionally in the potty, then after a few days she made the connection and started reliably going in the potty. Turns out she was ready (22mo) but if anyone had asked I probably would have said she wasn't. I was all prepared for it not to work at all as I wasn't planning to train until she was over 2.

I think this mystical "readiness", in combination with the ease and availability of disposable nappies, and multiple care providers, makes it tempting for parents to wait longer.

I’m sure I’m not the first person to point this out, but just because a child has not been diagnosed with SEN at 2/3/4, it doesn’t mean they don’t have any! DS’s autism wasn’t diagnosed until he was 8. That doesn’t mean he was NT at 4 when he started school.

The “it’s down to crap, lazy parenting” narrative allows those of us whose children were trained by 3 to feel comfortably smug and removed from the issue, but if it’s true we should all be wondering how and why people’s parenting skills have declined so drastically within the space of a generation.

I don’t know of a single child who isn’t potty trained in time for school because the parent is lazy. I do know several parents (including me) who’s children have struggled or who aren’t toilet trained by the time they start reception because they have additional needs, most of whom don’t have a formal diagnosis at the time but the signs are there.

I do agree that mothers get the blame for issues like this and fathers’ responsibilities are often never mentioned. Happens all the time.

I get the whole “waiting until they are ready” thing, I really do, but how do you know unless you try?
We tried with Dd at 2, and we had accidents galore. Waited another 6 months and tried again, and she cracked peeing on the potty no problem, poo took a bit longer.
DS is 2yr 3m and will do the odd wee on the potty, but doesn’t tell me every time he needs to go - so I’m just following his lead right now.
If there’s no medical problems or SEN at play, I have to admit, I’d be mortified if my kids weren’t potty trained by the time they start school at 4 Maybe that makes me an arsehole, but it’s true.
My mum is adamant that me and my sister were dry by 18 months - in the early 90’s. I’m very about the whole thing. I think what she means is, we were out of nappies at 18 months, but she was changing 50 pairs of pissy knickers everyday

Yes but most parents don't wait until their child is at school to toilet.train unless there are other underlying issues so what if my oldest was 3 and 2 months and and another child was 2 it doesn't affect anyone really ,I always think these articles and anecdotal evidence of children starting school.Inappies fail to take many things into account

Not sure whether people read threads anymore!

What are the actual figures for children not potty trained by reception?

How many of the vague number of children mentioned children have or go on to have additional needs/health issues?

Many, many children with additional needs have no diagnosis at 3 or 4.

'Waiting until they are ready' usually means, having a go at a younger age, meeting a lot of resistance and waiting until a time when the child is more receptive, which usually happens between 3 and 3 and a half. There is nothing wrong with this (sometimes it can mean less accidents and help when childten have problems with withholding and costipation)

Childten all develop at different rates, which is why we talk about windows of development rather than absolutes like...all children should do x by y age.

At 2 and a half yrs old, forgiving any sen or hormonal issues, your child is ready to be potty trained

BS. I’d read this myth too much on MN and confidently tried my DS at that age. His older sister had trained at 2y3m with no issues so I thought I knew what I was doing.

Not once over the course of about 5 day’s was it anything other than a complete surprise to him when he did a wee. He knew when it was happening, he knew when it had happened, he had the language to tell me. If I happened to sit him on the potty at the exact right moment then we might get a few drops. But 5 mins later I would have a puddle somewhere.
Five days of being unable to wash his pants fast enough broke me and I put him back in nappies.
I told a few friends with older boys about this and got a “wtf were you thinking, of course he wasn’t ready” reaction from all of them.

Claiming that “all children” (barring a specific issue preventing it) can train before 3 is something I only ever see on MN. Seems like total bollocks to me.

(DS is about to turn three and when the spate of illnesses in our house ends I will be trying again...)

ATL and ERIC survey of educational professionals good enough for you, hazeyjane?

www.atl.org.uk/latest/press-release/rise-children-starting-school-not-toilet-trained-–-atl-and-eric-survey

This is not news in primary education and is incredibly detrimental to everyone's education. You'll see that they acknowledge some of it is due to the general rise in additional needs.

And I don't buy this idea that all children will try when they are ready. How does a child even know what ready is, when they aren't shown what's expected and modern nappies are so "good"?? And it's far easier for many children just to let an adult sort it out for them - many parents just whip off a pull up whilst a child carries on playing. Zero incentive for a child to learn to go to the loo.

The alternative is that our children are somehow less physically capable of meeting basic toiletting needs than they were 30 or 40 years ago. I don't think children have changed that much in that time, do you?

My DS is very nearly 4 and isnt potty trained. he is ready, can tell me when he needs a wee and poo but just refuses to use the toilet or potty. He will not wear pants/pull ups and wont go naked.........i'm getting to the end of any ideas I have on what to do.

Everyone says to wait for him but he starts school in September and i'm starting to feel the pressure to get him trained before he starts.

I think this is incredibly sensible advice.

Juliette Randall, Chief Executive of ERIC, said: "Supplying parents with information about potty training as part of their child's two year development reviews, and at nursery, should give them ample time to train their child and to inform the school if they won't be trained in time, or if they develop a problem like constipation and soiling.

Agree totally that this concept of'readiness'is a bit of red herring unless you try. For a NT/ no SEN child, 2 is a reasonable age to introduce the potty, get them used to the idea then try a trial of pants. The way you know a child is 'ready' is that you see real improvement within a few days. If not, wait 2-3 months and try again. If everyone started doing this at 2, you wouldn't end up with too many 4 year olds who were untrained. It is perseverance with some kids - I had one who was trained within 3 days (I waited a few months longer than necessary just because I was having #2 and moving house) and another child who is only just trained at 3 because they had lots of issues with toilet refusal.

I think it is too easy with disposable nappies and the 'stay dry' technology to put it off until convenient. It's a shame people don;t think of the massive impact this has on the planet. Imagine if the entire world was putting their children in disposable nappies for up to 3 years!! I used washables apart from during illnesses for both mine (washables aren't exactly perfect ecologically either, what with all the actual washing ) and I'm still feeling good about the fact that I'll never do another nappy load a year later!

Laughing here at the notion that parents were so much better and less lazy in the 70s and 80s. The same parents that shoved 6 children in the back of a 5 seater car, smoked around us and put on god knows what horror films on tv? Parents now are more aware of the effects of pushing potty training before a child is ready. I know someone who's child ended up with a speech impediment as a result of it.

whereis the lazy option in the 1970s was training much earlier. Washing nappies ( frequently by hand) is not easy or fun.

I haven't seen any credible evidence that pushing training early does any damage. Plenty of evidence on the other hand, for the damage done by late training.

Of course in the 50/60/70's not only was the motivation the fact yiy had to wash nappies.. But also mothers were much more likely to be at home all day with young children, so parenting chores such as potty training were part of their role as housewife.
Now with most households having both parents working and lots of children at nursery but nurseries seeming reluctant to do the hard work of potty training... When exactly does it happen?
Not sure it's just lazy parenting... But childcare providers who don't see it as their responsibility, parents too tired or lazy to do it in evening or start it at the weekend...
I luckily had dd1 at a great nursery in Australia were from 18months they did potty training and gave parents a routine to follow-up at home so consistency for the child. She was reliably dry at 20months, and with dd2 I took a two weeks of leave and established routine at home before asking nursery to carry it on, but by then she was reliably dry aged 21months

When they say the children aren't toilet trained by the time they start school, do they mean still wearing nappies or not reliably dry? DS1 was reliably dry (day and night) before he started school, but the change from nursery to school unsettled him and he started wetting himself. Didn't last long, it stopped once he settled in and got more comfortable, but I know some of the staff were judging me because of it. I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of thing was included in the stats.

Notanother, your linked survey doesn't answer Hazeyjane's question regarding how many children start reception not toilet trained as the survey has dealt with responses from professionals who teach children as young as 3. So, 'starting school' is often referring to starting nursery!

I don't think 'waiting till they are ready' necessarity means waiting till the child spontaneously decides to be toilet trained, but rather that the parent gives it a try and if that doesn't work, puts them back in nappies for a bit longer.

The link says that 70% of reception and KS1 teachers had seen an increase in the last 5 years, and 100% of those teaching 3 year olds had seen an increase in the number of children not toilet trained. It also gives quotes from teachers outlining just how disruptive it is to a classroom for an adult to have to change a child.

Thank you for the link Notanother

I have seen some of these quoted figures before, I think they may be the only ones out there (I'd love to see others if there are).

As the article itself states these aren't actual numbers of children, but are responses from teachers and early years to the whether they feel there are more children not toilet trained.

Seven hundred education staff working with children between the ages of three to seven (the foundation stage and key stage 1) responded to the survey with 70% saying more children are now starting school without being toilet trained, compared to five years ago. This increased to 100% of staff working with children aged three to five.

The 70% figure is including children of 3 (ie preschool age) - not reception and up.

It is interesting that the article is from 2016 and they compare to 5 years previously - ie 1 year after the equality act came in (2010) which stated "Education providers have an obligation to meet the needs of children with delayed self care in the same way as they would meet the individual needs of children with delayed language or any
other kind of delayed development. Children should not be excluded from
normal early years activities solely because of incontinence. Any admission policy that sets a blanket standard of continence, or any other aspect of development, for all children is discriminatory and therefore unlawful under the Act. All such issues have to be dealt with on an individual basis and settings/schools are expected to make reasonable adjustments to meet the needs of each child. Previous to the act children could be excluded for not being toilet trained, so it makes sense that early years settings and schools would have seen an increase in those 5 years, of children who are not toilet trained.

Although the article alludes to the fact that There are an increased number of children with developmental needs. there are still no actual figures of how many have additional meeds/health needs or go on to have additional needs....as there are no figures of how many children are actually starting who aren't toilet trained. I

It also states that for the purposes of the survey, 'toilet trained' means....a child is considered to be toilet trained if they can remain clean and dry during the day and can use the toilet fairly independently. so this includes children who are in nappies (for whatever reason), children who are out of nappies but still having accidents (and 3 and 4 year olds having accidents when they start school/preschool was definitely a thing in the 70s!), children with continence issues etc.

The issue the article really highlights is that school struggle to support children with toileting needs - whatever the reason for those needs, which is part of other problems including funding, staffing, childten starting formal schooling at such a young age, inclusion being promoted without proper funding, planning or structure etc.

We have found this to be a problem, despite having a care plan and a dedicated 1-1, and have been on the receiving end of some pretty appalling attitudes from the school.

My daughter is 6. She’s not made any progress potty training in 4 years.
We’ve tried everything including drugs prescribed by her urologist which aren’t licensed for kids. We must have had tens of appointments with everyone from GP to health visitors, continence nurse, paediatrician, urologist. You name it. Her bladder responds to nothing. It literally lets wee out whenever it wants. At one stage several times an hour every hour!!!

I’ve learnt over four years that it’s not possible to toilet train some kids. Her bladder twitches Randomly and if she has warning it’s literally a few seconds and it could be 15 minutes after the last time.

I hate when parents are blamed. Continence has been our life for four years. And I can’t tell you how demoralising it is for her to have made no progress in four years.

She’s very bright and she hates being incontinent.

At the worst point we almost got referred to social services and it was suggested they put her with respite foster carers!!!! Purely because she’s incontinent.

There are so many incontinent kids without a diagnosis and they’re all assumed lazy, as are the parents. It’s horrible.

Our child’s continence has stolen years really. When she was wetting several times an hour it was debilitating. She couldn’t go anywhere.

It limits her. She’d love to go to a friends house but I couldn’t let her as she has a separate Bowel issue too and the clean up isn’t fair for a parent of one of her friends.

I’ve also learnt kids can poo without even feeling it due to being stretched from constipation and having no sensitivity.

To the person who said water bottles don’t help, it’s the opposite. Incontinent kids need to drink loads. This is to stretch their bladder ( which is like a balloon) to help it hold more, so it doesn’t leak like my daughters.

Anyone in Gloucester, I run a support group for parents with kids with daytime wetting, daytime soiling or bedwetting. I’ve had people who have teenagers attend. Yes people can be no more potty trained as a teenager. It’s horrible for the child.

Next one is 28/2/2019 at 8pm at Redwell centre, Matson if anyone is local.

I haven't seen any credible evidence that pushing training early does any damage. Plenty of evidence on the other hand, for the damage done by late training

This is interesting, I remember ds's continence nurse talking to us about how training when a child isn't ready (eg timed toilet trips and pushing when a child has fears..especially with regards to poo), can lead to longer term bowel and bladder issues - so a child not learning the signals of a full bladder, and developing the muscles necessary to hold it in and constipation due to withholding, which can then lead to soiling and urinary incontinence. She gave me literature.....I'll have to try and dig it out!!

I'll have a look at the evidence for long term issues for later toilet training too!

DD was trained at 2. We had some accidents, but she was reliably dry by 2.5.

Nappy Free Baby by Amber Hatch is very helpful. It mentions that between 4 and 9 months babies toilet habits start to form and as such become used to soiling themselves in nappies. So we put DD on a potty after some feeds at 5 months. From 8 months we would put her on the potty after every feed as well as first thing in the morning, last thing at night. She wasn't PT but it meant she was used to going on the toilet and we didn't face resistance when training. The tricky bit was getting her to communicate she wanted to use the toilet before she went. She was ok at putting helself on the potty when she had nothing on at home.

www.amazon.co.uk/Nappy-Free-Baby-practical-baby-led/dp/0091955335?tag=mumsnetforum-21

Just watched the segment and it seems to match my experience - parents are definitely less keen to deal with the inconvenience and mess of potty training. I think mothers working full time is one reason, another is more single parents. The nursery at work has a policy that all kids use the toilets (from 2.5) and ask parents to back up the training at home which they don't - the kids are not scolded for accidents but the peer pressure means even the two kids with sen use the toilets.

Anniehm - what would your setting do if a child had needs that meant they were delayed in toileting?
Do all the children you start at 2.5 show awareness or are they taken at regular times?

My son had complex special needs but I knew that despite problems with some areas of his development he was able to be potty trained. It was important to me that he was able to do the things he could. This meant that he was potty trained at 2 years and 1 month - only 3 months after he learned to walk. Most people were surprised because they'd assumed he would be universally behind his peers. SEND doesn't automatically mean children can't potty train when age expected - it just takes commitment.