Aibu to think MN should delete anti-vax threads?

[FigandVanilla]

The anti-vax movement is becoming a public health issue, and children’s lives are being endangered as a result. This obviously doesn’t only affect the children of anti-vaxxers, but also children who rely on herd immunity to protect them.

There is no scientific basis of any kind to support the anti-vax movement. It is an area where the scientific and medical community are in total agreement - vaccines save lives.

But there are not infrequent threads on Mumsnet where anti-vax sentiment spreads. And it’s always heartening to see the overwhelming push back against this from MNers. But I fear that there will inevitably still be parents who are swayed by these posts.

I am all for debate, but this isn’t a debatable issue. It’s an issue where one side is selling lies and misinformation. Facts are facts, and the truth is anti-vax threads exist because of a denial of the facts.

Should these threads be allowed? Or does MN have some kind of moral duty to children that means they ought to refuse to be a platform for a movement which is based on lies and which is actively harmful to children?

it’s not always that black and white though is it?

Because while there is definitely a sub-section of individuals who believe in no vaccinations at all and who uphold the Andrew Wakefield arguments, there is also a sub-section of society who have concerns about the levels/schedules/amounts of vaccinations given to children and their concerns around those, and to flat-out shut down any discussion about vaccination is potentially going to shut down any kind of concern without proper discussion.

E.g. chicken pox for instance is a mild childhood illness. As with any illness complications can arise, but on the whole chicken pox has always been seen as a mild childhood illness, until recently when there is suddenly a push to vaccinate children against this “serious” illness. My DS had all childhood vaccinations without question, however it would never have occurred to me to vaccinate against chicken pox. It would never have entered my head to go to a chicken pox party either fwiw, however if you shut down any discussion over CP it’s only a matter of time before people are abused in the same way over not vaccinating for CP than not vaccinating for MMR for instance.

By the same token however the HPV vaccine is wholly necessary for young girls, however the side effects and long-term impacts are as yet still unknown. And we have already had a situation where one strain of the vaccine has been withdrawn due to effects and concerns. Should this discussion be shut down lest it encourages people not to vaccinate?

My ds had the bcg vaccine as normal but he, and around twenty of his classmates had an adverse reaction to it. In most cases it was a high temperature, dizzyness etc, but one child ended up in a&E. To the extent the school contacted the vaccine manufacturer and was told that of course it couldn’t be the vaccine. Should the parents of that child be shouted down for their concerns at the time?

If it were black and white i.e. vaccine vs non vaccine that would be one thing, but it isn’t. And it’s just as relevant to discuss any potential concerns and to also allow for the realisation that bad reactions can and do occur in some instances as it is to talk about the benefits of vaccines.

I am not anti vaccination by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think that it’s possible to overload a child’s immmune system with the number of vaccines we give now and the schedule which they are given in. And I do think that there is in some instances (CP for instance) a move towards scaring parents into vaccinations by talking up a mild illness as something serious which is out to kill their child when this is absolutely not the case.

Erm @Lweji
There certainly are very genuine concerned parents who post for real advice. They are not always 'anti vaxxers. Sometimes they are people who are concerned after their child has an adverse reaction and that is denied by the nhs.
I know this. I know it because I DO vaccinate, and I am a parent to a child that had a serious reaction to a vaccine.

I have more respect for the anti vaxxers than I do people like OP. And the respect I have for anti vaxxers is zero.

Maybe they should run everything by you so that you can remove anything that doesn't suit you.

What are the medical reasons that prevent a child from being vaccinated? Genuine question.

Also I am under no illusions about the devastating effects of these illnesses. I have travelled in third world countries, I have seen a whooping cough outbreak in a place where i lived, and I have witnessed not simply the horror of it at the time, teeny babies hospitalised and struggling to breathe, children missing a year of school....but also awful complications in the form of chronic conditions in the years since , progressive deafness being one.
STILL . my child had a reaction to a vaccine, and it was serious and terrifying. Why should I be vilified for asking questions about the safety of vaccines before I give more ?

Filthyforfirth, immune compromised children, very young babies, children undergoing cancer treatment or chemo for whatever reason.

My DS takes immune suppressants. He's fully vaccinated (mostly from before his illness started) but he can't have the live flu vaccine for example.

Yabu. Everyone is entitled to their view and id prefer we had free speech and discussed it here than hid it. Also its not always as straight forward as you think. As a child i had a fit following the measles injection (my dad had the same when he was a child) and my mum was advised not to give me the mumps one. I was vvv nervous before dd measles injection due to family history. Luckily she was ok. Re the flu spray up the nose because of family history and her dgm who looks after her once a week having a weaken immune system and it being a weakened but live virus i was on the fence on that one. In the end i went for it and dd was ok. I really would have been grateful at that time if i could have come onto mn and discussed it and asked other mums advice, but knowing how anti mn is on various issues i didnt.

Also @lweji
Mandatory vaccinations are fuck all like seat beats.

Clunk click, massive seizure?!
No that never happened.

YABU. Debate should be allowed on these boards. If vaccination is only allowed to be discussed in a pre approved fashion - then what next?

As others have said, the response on mn to anyone who has concerns about vaccination is vitriolic and downright abusive sometimes. So I don't see the risk in allowing them to stand- I can't imagine they encourage an anti vax perspective.

And DS has had all his in case anyone wonders.

Ok thank you. Though I would question 'young babies' on your list. Pretty sure my baby had his first jabs around 8 weeks or so. But of course you might have been referring to something else.

In that case, yes, of course children whp can't be vaccinated should be exempt. But I still think a general policy of no vaxx no school attendance is a good one. It is a public health issue not a personal choice.

There are lots of things I find boring and/or annoying on MN. But I find MN deletes too many threads as it is.

And the vaccine issue is not as cut and dried as people say it is. The mere fact that vaccine damage legislation exists, means that vaccines are not safe for everyone and therefore people should have a choice and the chance to discuss.

And being worried about vaccines isn't just about saying MMR=autism. There were worries about the whooping cough vaccine in the 70s which was why I didn't have it. Someone died only a couple of weeks ago from a yellow fever vaccine.

Totally agree with the comment above about chicken pox, too.

You can't delete opinion!!

Ridiculous,but MN would never do it anyway so it's a non issue

Satsumaeter...thanks it was the whooping cough one the gp advised my mum not to have due to that fit not mumps. Mum said it awful seeing her new born baby having a fit which required medical attention. Im very pro vaccine by the way hence why dd had all hers even the flu one i was worried about.

Why ‘not infrequent’? Why not just use frequent?

It's terrifying that there are people in our society who actually believe that vaccines are a bad thing.

However, YABU. You can't start censoring people's views just because they're stupid, that's totally unfair. We all have the right to free speech and that right needs to be protected.

@SummerGems Chickenpox can be dangerous in pregnant women, and apart from that once you get Chickenpox it stays in your body (resides in the spine) and can lead to shingles later on in life which is a very painful condition. So it isn't the innocuous childhood illness people think it is.

Ok, let’s say theoretically I’m a deeply committed Roman Catholic.

I want abortion not to be debated, it’s a health issue as babies die and there’s risk to women.

I don’t want trans issues talked about because as a health issue it harms the bodies of young people and damages mental health.

I believe male circumcision should be a criminal offence if not medical reasons, due to harm caused

I hold those viewed strongly, I don’t accept the opposing argument and I want you banned and silenced if you voice them.

Or have you lost the appetite for banning debate when they are no your righteous opinions?

I also suggest you google “active harm vs passive harm” - it shines a psychological light, as to why parents are worried about immunisations. We can’t help the way that we’re neurologically wired - ie to constantly “risk manage” for our children. And whilst we mostly are able to use our “rational” brains to square that circle in this case, it isn’t always easy.

Again my child is vaccinated. But I have empathy for those who are worried.

No significant risk to pregnant women from CP besides which as a childhood illness most pregnant women will have had it and be immune and therefore not at risk of anything.

Similarly the vaccination is a live virus and shingles can still occur as a result but the vaccine doesn’t give life-long immunity which catching the virus as a child does.

Any illness, even the common cold has risks attached. We can’t eliminate them all

You can catch it more than once though, having it as a child doesn't give you immunity. I know a few that have had it twice, I heard of someone having it 3 times.

And the vaccine issue is not as cut and dried as people say it is.

Fully agree. But as I pointed out on the other thread, those questioning vaccines tend to question the wrong vaccines or make the wrong questions.

I'm yet to see a thread about BCG, and there are rare threads about chicken pox.

It's also true that a few people shouldn't be vaccinated. And not all vaccines are suitable or cost effective for national schemes.

Yes, the yellow fever vaccine has risks, but the alternative in endemic areas or for travellers is worse than measles.
I've taken it twice and I'm glad I did. It's supposed to give life long immunity now. And lower doses may be enough for epidemic situations. This is an example where science evolves and adjusts recommendations according to the evidence.

Those are legitimate issues.

And you can catch it if you have the vaccination. In fact you’re more likely to catch it as an adult if you have a vaccination as a child, and then it is far worse.