Aibu to think MN should delete anti-vax threads?

[FigandVanilla]

The anti-vax movement is becoming a public health issue, and children’s lives are being endangered as a result. This obviously doesn’t only affect the children of anti-vaxxers, but also children who rely on herd immunity to protect them.

There is no scientific basis of any kind to support the anti-vax movement. It is an area where the scientific and medical community are in total agreement - vaccines save lives.

But there are not infrequent threads on Mumsnet where anti-vax sentiment spreads. And it’s always heartening to see the overwhelming push back against this from MNers. But I fear that there will inevitably still be parents who are swayed by these posts.

I am all for debate, but this isn’t a debatable issue. It’s an issue where one side is selling lies and misinformation. Facts are facts, and the truth is anti-vax threads exist because of a denial of the facts.

Should these threads be allowed? Or does MN have some kind of moral duty to children that means they ought to refuse to be a platform for a movement which is based on lies and which is actively harmful to children?

Absolutely not.
Vaccination threads get very heated, for good reason.
But if there was say, a dodgy batch that caused side effects, or a huge amount of children experiencing one particular symptom after receiving a new vaccine.... Should we be banned from discussing it?
Even the slightest mention that a vaccination could be responsible for any adverse conditions in a child is met on mumsnet with a ' can you direct me to the peer reviewed paper?' Etc etc. with mumsnetters seemingly oblivious to the way that the majority of academic research is funded in this country.
Just recently there was the case of scientist Professor Martin Gore , who died suddenly after receiving the yellow fever vaccine. If this had been a child on mumsnet, and a mother had suggested that her child had died after receiving a vaccine, would she too have been dismissed and asked to provide a peer reviewed paper to confirm the link?

I think parents have valid concerns about whether or not to vaccinate. Some may be worried about how many different ones are given at once, some may want to select/opt out of certain ones and some may want them all asap because they fear for their baby catching something. Forums and debates allow those to be shared. Vaccines aren’t compulsory and people should be able to debate how they feel freely.

"I think they do that in Australia"

It's not about schools there, the child's right to an education is upheld.

What you don't get is the full rate (or anything) on government family payments. Unless you have a valid medical exemption for some/all or a doctor attesting you are adhering to an approved 'catch up' programme (useful if you have moved back from abroad where schedules may vary). The 'conscience clause' has gone, even for JW.

It’s encouraging to hear that some parents who were concerned about vaccines were reassured by MN threads. It would be interesting to know where the balance lies between that and between people being convinced not to vaccinate by what they read here, but not sure reliable research could be carried out.

And it is worth mentioning.
The wording that has been corrected at the bottom of the guardian article is relevant.
When people have adverse reactions to vaccines, even death , we are never allowed to suggest it was 'as a result of vaccination' we always must say, 'suddenly after vaccination' so that the two events, regardless of how close together, are deemed to be entirely unconnected.

EdithWeston thank you for clarifying!

YABU. I vaccinate my children and get annoyed by anti-vaxxers, but I believe in freedom of speech. Besides which the only way you will rationalise with anti-vaxxers is to talk to, and debate with, them; so surely it's counterproductive to delete those threads.

Yes, it makes families put their money where their mouth is. It's led to higher uptakes.

The MN insistence that all events after vaccination must be coincidence is a little irksome. There are however a couple of posters who regularly counter this by quoting the pack information leaflets and the side effects listed there.

A death following vaccination is incredibly rare, and for it to be announced, by reputable and scientifically-literate person or organisation as linked there will be decent evidence of that link. (PS: I do not automatically assume the British press is scientifically-literate)

Cocochicago, serious complications are a listed side effect of that vaccine. I think they had to change it because the cause of death has not yet been properly determined rather than an outright denial it was the vaccine. On the contrary, the assumption seems to be that it was the vaccine.

This is where the wording in the Guardian article was drawn from

www.immunology.org/news/bsi-response-death-martin-gore-following-yellow-fever-vaccine

Of course not!

I disagree strongly with anti-vaxxers. I think they are well-intentioned people but also that they are sorely mistaken and are arrogant too - they think they know more than people who have spent their life studying medicine because they have done a bit of googling.

I would suggest that if anyone did have real concerns they wouldn't be reassured by coming to mumsnet, so much as bullied, humiliated and abused for their decision.
ANY real concerns are dismissed , and free speech is a thing of the past here. So much as the feminist boards are hijacked by extremists, as are the health topics. It's toxic.
A serious vaccine question will be met with swearing, abuse, etc etc.
It's horrible for mums, especially those whose children have had real, serious life changing reactions to vaccines. You won't hear about them in peer reviewed papers, because their concerns have been dismissed as nonsense as early as the first post- vax gp appointment. Simply they are told... No connection .

I agree OP
Anti vaxxers are just idiots that have seen something on the internet and threads will just fill their heads with garbage all the more.

See ^^

So much as the feminist boards are hijacked by extremists

I agree with that. Although the “a woman is anyone who says they are a woman” voices seem to have fallen away quite a bit recently, so maybe the FWR boards are returning to a place where extremist views are given short shrift unless they’re based on facts.

We don’t have a right to free speech if it causes harm for example racism and incitement to racial violence isn’t permitted.
Fwiw though as a PP said I think these posts can be useful and a source of counter information against the anti-Vaxxers.

I really like the idea of non vaccinated children not being allowed to attend school. I would fully be in favour of that.

Tough one. I obviously agree with free speech, but it does seem to give anti vaxers a platform to spread their nonsense...

Simply they are told... No connection
That depends on the vaccine it it’s MMR and autism then 100s of studies have shown no connection and it is right that they are told that.
Other vaccines need to be handled on a case by case situation based on the evidence available.

I am in 2 minds. I agree with the OP that it is a health issue, not a free speech issue. And those who are anti-vaccine are very unhinged and on the whole distrusting of anything medical. The irony of course is that we see ads on tv for World Vision and these 3rd world countries would so love and appreciate the medical and pharmaceutical advancements that some take for granted which leads them to reject these vaccines and advancements. It all seems so wasteful and ungrateful when compared with 3rd world countries. We don't know how lucky we are. Familiarity/spoiled with medications and healthcare leads to contempt.

Anyway to get back on topic, I think having these threads are good because it shames the nutters and stops their propaganda, misinformation, half-truths and outright lies spreading via holding it up to the spotlight. The more people who read the rational posts with facts, the better. However, what is sad is that this is still an issue to be discussed. The science is settled, there really is no argument to be had. So it is sad we even have those threads in 2019. I think these anti-vaccine loons should spend time in impoverished undeveloped countries, it may just make them be grateful for the advancements in medicine that we have.

Exactly, Family'. FWR is an echo chamber - if you were there, you simply would not believe that other viewpoints exist, and that feminism does not equate to being GC. Trolls - well yes, they appear from time to time anywhere they can be sure of getting a good reaction (all of MN gets trolled.

But also vanished are all the many other feminist viewpoints. Not least because (as occasionally shown by threads outside the topic) much of MN has FWR hidden, and a common reason given is the intolerance of the echochamnber.

I really hope that more of MN does not follow that regrettable path.

"I really like the idea of non vaccinated children not being allowed to attend school. I would fully be in favour of that."

I bloody well don't.

A child has a right to education.

And those who are non-vaccinated for good reason (I mean medical) definitely should not be forcibly excluded.(either by law or public opinion)

Rancid, family is saying the opposite to what you think she is saying

The current thread isn't even an out and out 'anti' vax thread, just asking questions. She isn't advising anyone not to have them. No it shouldn't be deleted, and this thread proves her point about all discussion being shut down which increases some people's suspicion of vaccines.
I’m not sure I agree with this. She was posting views on that crack Poish doctor that has some pretty extreme (and disproved) views on vaccines. Never seemed to say anything positive about vaccinations despite being supposedly on the fence. Didn’t really respond to the scientific points people were posting.

"Questioning" and "keeping an open mind" is a tactic used by all sorts of trolls, from antivaxxers to Trumpers.

Still, I don't think they should be deleted.

But we should see these pps for what they really are. And they are not genuine people with doubts.

Mandatory vaccinations aren't that different from making people wear seat belts.

We just tend to avoid forcing people to inject things into their bodies.