Do people understand that many of us have lived through high periods of unemployment?

[marymarkle]

There are major issues for young people today with zero hour contracts and high housing costs. But I do get a bit fed up with comments that state that life is much harder for young people now that ever before.

I left school during the Thatcher year. Unemployment was very high and outside London whole communities were decimated by this, I still remember a classmate just before we left coming into school excited because they had secured a job in a factory. Jobs were very hard to get, reaching a peak of 10.8% unemployed in the early 1980's, and that was with them fidding the unemployment figures. And there was no MW, wages were often very very low. Yes house prices were cheaper, but that only benefited those already doing well.

I remember it as a very grim time in our country. While the City was booming and people earned massive bonuses, street homelessness soared, use of illegal drugs soared, as did crime. And many adults in their 50s who lost jobs during this time, never worked again. It was a grim time economically to be young.

The very high mortgages thing was very short lived, and the principle was far, far lower than they are today. The Average house price in 1992 was £52,187 so with a 10% deposit your principle would have been 47059 in the first year. You would have paid £7520 in interest in the short period of 16%. This is effectively the same that someone with an average priced house in 2017 pays at the average mortgage interest rate of 3% ( there was little to no difference between the base rate and mortgage rate in the 80s,90s).

Average costs of houses have risen dramatically:

In 1980 the average wage was £5,720 and the average house cost £22,677.

In 2015 the average wage was £29,934 and the average house was £188,566.

3.96 times to 6.3, smaller multiples of smaller deposits as a % of wages.

Its easier to get on the housing ladder now.

Sorry, its not easier to get on the housing ladder now.

"The 1980s have gone so what’s the point in saying things were harder in my day?"

The only think to be gained is when people ask "how much worse can it get", when talking about Brexit. We can answer them.

I said to people that we were going to go back to the 80's, here in Liverpool, when the Torys came in and unfortunately we are getting there. Brexit will take us right back there.

I think all generations think they're worse off than the previous one.

I still remember being asked questions at job interviews that would be outrageous by today's standards e.g. 'when are you having a family,'' 'will you wear makeup everyday' etc. Also being turned down for jobs becuase 'the men wouldn't like working for a woman'. I also remember the pub in candle light because of strikes, and paying 17.5% on my mortgage. We put off buying a TV for years because of the cost. I still can't claim many pensions because most were non contributory (instead of more salary), and I worked there for less than 5 years. We didn't have any other option either, apart from savings accounts, which are now worth diddly squat because of low interest rates.

See I think in the 90's and early 2000s things did get better. We were in an economic boom. Of course there were still problems, but employment and wages were rising and infrastructure was being improved.

To those saying what is the point of comparing? You have not RTFT. What I want is the end of inter generational hostility and all of us to fight against things making it hard for people at the moment such as zero hour contracts.

To my shame though I had forgotten how there did used to be casual workers. My neighbour as a kid worked as a casual labourer - so turn up outside the building site gates early and hope to get taken on that day. They were the poorest family I knew with the mum often sending the young kids to knock on our door to "borrow" some slices of bread so they could make toast and have something to eat.

I think all (generations think they're worse off than the previous one.

Nope. I'm a 55 yo woman feeling sad that my children won't have the same advantages as dh and I had, and further worried that they, and any potential grandchildren, will be shafted by Brexit.

My dad retired in 1993 on a final salary pension. He is now in his 80s. 3p years retired on a full wage (with other benefits too).

We will be lucky to retire at touching 70. Despite paying into pensions all of our working lives they have been changed so many times that what was originally final salary is now going to be much much less.

Our children will probably never retire if things continue like this.

My parents wouldn't say that the 80s were harder than now.

I think it’s a British thing for people to always think they are worse off than others (previous generations), we like to have something to moan about and we focus on the negatives instead of the postitives. Yes, house prices are so high that young people can’t get on the property ladder and yes jobs are disappearing as computers and tech take over but we have food (which isn’t that expensive although everyone moans about food prices), we have the NHS and over all people are probably better off then they were 50 years ago.

I grew up in what I guess was a middle class family, my parents owned a house, both worked and we went on nice holidays, but there were times when my parents couldn’t afford certain things like clothes, I wore hand me downs and we shopped at jumble sales, my mum had to plan the food shop to what she could afford and she would have to save up if we needed shoes. I had friends that were Lower/working class and their cupboards were often empty and they never had new clothes or toys.

I’m not a home owner, probably never will be as the house prices here are some of the highest in the country, I have 2 disabled children, I’m a single mum who work part time but I don’t consider myself worse off than people were 30 years ago when I was a child.

weetabix Your dad was not a young person leaving school in the early 80s. And the middle classes did very well in the 80s. It was ordinary people who had it tough.

Actually I think you are wrong. I moved back to the UK about 4 years ago and I think the situation here is pretty sh1t TBH. I think as a young person you are pretty screwed unless you are privileged enough to get a very good education, good work experience and are lucky enough to get picked up by an employer with integrity.

Everything now seems to be zero hours, a contract or flexible (as in we don't want to hire you FT and pay benefits) and I am not talking retail or low level jobs, I am talking professional roles too. Whatever happened to joining a company, succession planning, further education and training, shares in the co. and bonuses from a company who recognises that losing you costs them money. It does cost them money. I know because my job used to be hiring and managing peoples careers in top international companies.

I look around me and I see half awake people at work in nearly every interaction that I have with a business and I despair. I then remind myself that why should someone work hard if they get treated like sh!t by employers.

I am now looking for a flexible job or even zero hours to suit my parenting responsibilities. That is ok for me with no mortgage but not OK for someone in their 20's wanting to start a family and get a mortgage.

It is pretty dire out there and I am glad I am not a millennial.

OP, you're right about the 90s and early 2000s. I graduated in 2000 and started the first job I had applied for the following Monday. By the time everything went to shit in the late 2000s I was secure in my career. If anything, the ease of getting decent loans had made me a little reckless - that's about it for the negatives.

I do appreciate you saying we should be working together though. Various generations have been shafted. Everyone loves their kids, grandkids (or should do) so surely we should all want the situation to be better for them instead of comparing our situations.

I lived as a child in slums. The genuine article. No hot running water, 2 adults and 3 kids in 2 rooms, outside toilet shared with other families. Although the early 80s was a tough time in many parts of the country, things had improved. There were still people living in sub standard accommodation, but not in the conditions I lived in as a child.

I think housing for the very poorest is a major issue once again. And I care a lot more about that than whether someone can afford to buy their own house.

Here's a song (okay, from 2008 but still fairly modern) about this stuff:

Thatcher Fucked the Kids - Frank Turner:

Whatever happened to childhood?
We're all scared of the kids in our neighbourhood;
They're not small, charming and harmless,
They're a violent bunch of bastard little shits.
And anyone who looks younger than me
Makes me check for my wallet, my phone and my keys,
And I'm tired of being tired out
Always being on the lookout for thieving gits.

We're all wondering how we ended up so scared;
We spent ten long years teaching our kids not to care
And that "there's no such thing as society" anyway,
And all the rich folks act surprised
When all sense of community dies,
But you just closed your eyes to the other side of all the things that she did.
Thatcher fucked the kids.

And it seems a little bit rich to me,
The way the rich only ever talk of charity
In times like the seventies, the broken down economy
Meant even the upper tier was needing some help.
But as soon as things look brighter,
Yeah the grin gets wider and the grip gets tighter,
And for every teenage tracksuit mugger
There's a guy in a suit who wouldn't lift a finger for anybody else.

We're all wondering how we ended up so scared;
We spent ten long years teaching our kids not to care
And that "there's no such thing as society" anyway,
And all the rich folks act surprised
When all sense of community dies,
But you just closed your eyes to the other side of all the things that she did.
Thatcher fucked the kids.

You've got a generation raised on the welfare state,
Enjoyed all its benefits and did just great,
But as soon as they were settled as the richest of the rich,
They kicked away the ladder, told the rest of us that life's a bitch.
And it's no surprise that all the fuck-ups
Didn't show up until the kids had grown up.
But when no one ever smiles or ever helps a stranger,
Is it any fucking wonder our society's in danger of collapse?

So all the kids are bastards,
But don't blame them, yeah, they learn by example.
Blame the folks who sold the future for the highest bid:
That's right, Thatcher fucked the kids.

He also wrote "Riot Song"

Last night the kids sent London alight,
started out in Tottenham and the flames spread through the night,
but they didn't burn the banks down, and they didnt fight the cops,
they just burned down their own ends and robbed the shops.

Most of us just stood and watched it burn,
just ordinary people, who are working hard to earn
earning money for the weekend, and some peace to see their folks,
and last night we watched it all go up in smoke.

Make no mistake this ain't no bullshit insurrection,
it's anger mixed with greed without a plan,
but don't pretend that you're not part of the solution,
you can't just keep your head down in the sand,

So fuck the cops, and fight the thieves,
step up defend your own communities.

And today don't expect Westminster to care,
They pass the laws then hit the suburbs,
where they breathe the cleaner air,
in an? fear unsullied, by burning cars or by hate,
to the post codes where there are no sink estates.

But it shouldn't be their problem anyway,
it's a battle on our doorsteps, and it won't just go away,
so if you give a single damn about the city where you live,
you'll step up now and ask what you can give.

Because these kids they are our neighbours, and our children
and if they say that they don't give a damn,
it's up to us to show them it's a problem,
to steal the shit you want just 'cause you can.

So fuck the cops, forget the thieves,
step up defend your own communities.
Tomorrow we stand together oh we're never on our own,
put out the fires, this city is our home.

I think that these point out the different attitudes of the welfare state then and now: Now you're a scrounger, you don't try hard enough, you're cheating the system -- "let's get rid of 'em all, fuck 'em, we never got any handouts and look at us now!"

I hate being on benefits, but I have two disabled children and I'm a single mother. I'm moving in with DP in the summer, and I won't feel as bad, because at least I can say there is a worker in the household (though he's one of those on a zero hour contract with two supply agencies as, despite applying for jobs as soon as they come up, schools are actually not employing people directly very often because they're too scared their budgets will be cut and they'll have to make redundancies).

Before I had my children I worked. I didn't have a gap in my employment (other than maternity leaves, but technically I was still employed) from the age of 16 in 2001 until I had to leave work because I was in hospital appointments more than the office at the start of 2014. Despite this, all I read about people in my situation is that we can't be bothered and we should all be left to freeze and starve. It's completely true (going back to the lyrics I posted) that there is no such thing as community anymore. People only care about themselves, and companies only care about profit. Yes that was the same in the 80s too, but at least if you were "signing on" you had sympathy from your peers while you searched for hundreds of jobs, rather than benefit investigations, abuse, and fraud checks.

Tiredness Yes that solidarity of unions seems to have gone. I would much rather work with young people to change things, than to hear constantly how I had it much easier than me. That is not true, I did not. I faced different challenges and ones that many of them would not understand now. But we could change things together.

I think inter generational conflict is being fostered by the upper classes. Better for us to fight amongst ourselves than unite and change things.

I feel like I have stumbled into a monty python sketch. Chateaux Chablis anyone...

Yes it was hard for some and not for others. Get over it.

When you consider my grandparents, married in 39, were immediately separated by the war, bombed house, etc etc.

HugandRoll Totally agree there was not the same demonisation of the poor back then. I think that was because of the influence of the unions and also because in so many places there were so many people unemployed that blaming individuals really was laughable. It was why Tebbitt was widely mocked for telling people to get on their bike.
I am sorry to hear though that you are struggling. As my wonderful mother in law sued to say - don't let the bastards get you down.

@marymarkle

My dad is not middle class. He had a very deprived childhood in a very very deprived area of London.

And I left school in the 80s. I know what it was like for young people.

I trained as a nurse (started on £200/month). In my 3rd year I was on £500/month. Was qualified for 2 years earning about £900/month and then bought my house.

So after 2 years of working on a proper wage I was able to buy a house.

Do you think newly qualified teachers and nurses today can do that?

I do love that older generations ( those born post war) give the " we didn't get anything" shit.

Yeah, free education, on the job training, free health care ( including dentistry), low house prices, social housing ( 43% of people lived in social housing in 1978), students able to claim the dole during Summer and Easter hols, lower risk of sanction for the unemployed.

Yeah life was hard then, but its way harder now.

Being unable to get anything other than a MW job without a 2:1 degree and having first interned at NASA is a new thing for this generation.

Earning, perhaps, the national average wage or maybe more and still not being able to save the deposit for a flat is a new thing for this generation.

Pouring away maybe 75% of your income that pays off the landlord's mortgage is a new thing for this generation.

OP suggests things were harder for a generation coming of age in the 80s but I would disagree. OP states 10% were out of work but of course that means 90% were in work, and for them the prospect of buying a home wasn't pie in the sky.

No hot running water, 2 adults and 3 kids in 2 rooms, outside toilet shared with other families. Although the early 80s was a tough time in many parts of the country, things had improved. There were still people living in sub standard accommodation, but not in the conditions I lived in as a child.
We’ve largely got rid of the slums, that doesn’t mean people aren’t living in poor conditions. 128000 children had no permanent home in 2017. A quarter of these lived in accommodation with no kitchen, half of them share toilet facilities, these places are often filthy and unsecured. Many have families in a single room sharing a bed.

The properties might not be “slums” but that doesn’t make them any better.

weetabix Sounds like you were earning the national average wage then or thereabouts? And there was a time when you could get 100% mortgages. So yes possible to buy. Lets ignore though the high rate of repossessions that followed that.

And of course there were winners. There are always winners. There are young people today leaving school, getting great jobs and doing very well.

I am much more concerned about your average working class person.

Boris I love that you quote social housing rates from the 70's when we are talking about the 80s. That is because as you know the early 80s was the big sell off of council housing. And yes sanctions for unemployment were rare. In the main because there were simply not enough jobs. Not even casual labour or well below NMW ones. And everyone except the Tories who denied it knew that.

Cost of housing is the biggest problem nowadays, rents are awful.

Yabbers Did you not notice me talking about how housing is getting much worse for the poorest? We are going backwards. And we need to fight to change that. But inter generational hostility and telling ordinary working class older people that they had it easy, does not help.

I think the point is we didn't choose the 80's or the crash in 2008 or the recession in the 1920's

But we CHOSE Brexit!

We have chosen to go back in time. Anyone saying we won't I disagree with.

In the 80s you could buy a house on one low wage (I did). You could go to university for free and get a grant. Most jobs did not exploit people and instead gave them some security. There was not a generation of (wealthy and spoilt) older people telling you that you are 'snowflakes', with no understanding of reality at all.
It's so much harder now for young people.