Do people understand that many of us have lived through high periods of unemployment?

[marymarkle]

There are major issues for young people today with zero hour contracts and high housing costs. But I do get a bit fed up with comments that state that life is much harder for young people now that ever before.

I left school during the Thatcher year. Unemployment was very high and outside London whole communities were decimated by this, I still remember a classmate just before we left coming into school excited because they had secured a job in a factory. Jobs were very hard to get, reaching a peak of 10.8% unemployed in the early 1980's, and that was with them fidding the unemployment figures. And there was no MW, wages were often very very low. Yes house prices were cheaper, but that only benefited those already doing well.

I remember it as a very grim time in our country. While the City was booming and people earned massive bonuses, street homelessness soared, use of illegal drugs soared, as did crime. And many adults in their 50s who lost jobs during this time, never worked again. It was a grim time economically to be young.

That's the other thing. Back then you could get a job in the petrol station, take away, factory or whatever with no education. Now they want A levels at least.

We all moaned about YTS. That was a breeze compared to some of the apprenticeships on offer now.

I grew up in the 80s with my town destroyed by closing of factories and shipbuilding. Many of my friends' parents were suddenly jobless and life was a real struggle for many. I was relatively lucky as my parents were white collar and kept working, but I will never forget how Thatcher raped this country. She is solely responsible for the ruin of communities up and down our country. Don't get me started on the council tax and student grants.

I think young people today have it tough, just as tough, but in different ways.

You were a young adult during the Thatcher years. So you were raised by people who experienced the Great Depression and / or WW2 so all your problems are invalid.

Not helpful, is it?

Yes YTS was much better. My boyfriend did a YTS with a conservation charity. They basically let him follow his interests in this area and do what he wanted for the charity, within reason.
Of course young people now face real issues. And middle class young people have a much tougher time than middle class young people in the past. And some employment practices should be made illegal.
But I do remember how run down everything was. Schools falling part literally, lots of closed shops (and not because of internet shopping, but because no one had any money), and how poor so many people were. Billy Elliott is good at capturing some of this.

hundredacrewoods Oh I am well aware that some older people had it much tougher than me. I knew older adults who had been in concentration camps for example.

Many live at home until their late 20's because they cannot afford to move.

Im going to pick up on this one, because social history is facinating, so it's not a pop or dig.

The Post War generation 'never had it so good' and they did have it good, they didnt have to start married life in their mums spare bedroom and hope they would eventaully have enough to rent a place of their own, and if they did, they too would have to take in lodgers.

The post war generation, had contraception, they weren't banging out child after child who all lived in a two up two down, sleeping top to toe.

The Post War generation had free heath care, and innoculations. they werent dying of childhood diseases

The Post War generation had access to a much longer free education, up to 14, then 15 then 16 now 18, plus free uni

The Post War generation have lived in times of relative peace - I say relative because they might not be getting the Blitz every night but you still had the IRA going at it, and the spectre of the Cold War, Bay of Pigs, Cuban Missile Crisis etc

So every generation has had its hardships, and the Post War geration were a unique 60 odd year period in histroy that cannot be sustained unfortunately. This goes in cycles, and so children will stay at hom and multi generational houses will become normal again - how many loft conversions do you see? Loads, its quite noraml in my little area of the south east, a three generational house.

Lots of adverts in shop windows with rooms to rent - all very vogue again

Kids are pooling together to buy houses - like we did in the 80's - to get a foot on the housing ladder.

Demographically, kids are moving round, there are fewer local ties, with the amount of divorced and seperated parents- its often easier to move away with one parent and start afresh, it allows a minimum of two bases.

Uni education is falling back out of vogue with a return to traditional vocational pathways.

creaky £36000 in 1980 is equivalent due to inflation, to £146,000

Now put wages through the same algorithm...

hundred is that directed at me? I am very much in agreement that young people today have it very hard indeed- just as tough as we did, just a different tough.

My niece graduated last summer , after working her arse off to get a degree whilst being a sole parent, and cannot get a job despite a 2:1 from a good university. Even jobs which she is way overcqualified for she is not getting interviewed. She is distressing. Shit.

I was born in 1979, we weren’t rich by any definition but we could afford to live on just my dads salary. Didn’t have holidays abroad and only one car, the majority of my school friends were the same. Biggest difference (IMO) is housing costs, the house we moved into in 1984 cost £27k, today it’s probably nearer £200k. Even a 2 bed terrace in the same area is around £90k (my GD paid £1k for his in the ‘60s), pretty much impossible for anyone on min wage or zero hours. It’s also much harder now to get secure employment; generations of people worked in the very large factory in my hometown, now (I’m given to understand) staff are only taken on through agencies. I worry about my job and just what the hell I'm going to do and how I’ll live. Jobs in my part of the country just aren’t there, apart from min wage retail (and that’s on a knife-edge) and care work. Im very lucky that DH has a decent pension (it’s more than my wage) and our house is paid for.

Waitressing not distressing (although it is!)

I have reached a brick wall with a young person in my life. They do not get my point about there being (virtually?) no casual/ entry level jobs when I was looking for them. (This is of course totally dependent on where you live, but I was in an outer district of a biggish city, where there are opportunities now.) There is a relentless low level whinging about not being paid enough at entry level to have a champagne (well endless beer and takeaway food) lifestyle.

What I could say to this individual to be brutal is: you have no marketable skills, it's a confidence building stepping stone and you are getting a bit of pay, you lazy twit. I hold my tongue obviously.

What I see has worsened is that pay in the "steady" white collar jobs (which if you managed to get one would have been have been a good position in my youth) has stagnated for decades.

plainspeaking It was common for the post war generation working class generation to start out married life in their parents back bedroom. Also many still lived in slums. The 60s was the time of great slum clearances. Whole families living in 1 or 2 rooms, no hot water, shared outside toilet. And only the middle class went to university.

BUT people had come out of the war and were grateful for peace. They also did have a lot of hope for the future and life was getting better, The creation of the NHS, slum clearances and the building of new council houses, the rebuilding of bomb destroyed public buildings.

multivac The average salary in Britain in 1980 was £6,000, equivalent to £19,000 today. Salaries were low.

The middle class do have it much harder though. The middle class used to be relatively small and those lucky enough to be part of it had a much easier life then with relatively higher salaries, lower house prices and free university.

I'd like to echo snuggy's post on the first page.

I'm not quite 30, and when I was growing up the message that was drummed into me by my parents, my teachers, everyone I know, was that if I worked hard and tried my best I'd get a good job, have a nice house etc.

My dad would point out not-so-nice houses and say "If you work hard you won't have to live in one of them" (yes, he's a bit of a snob).

Well guess what? I worked hard, got a job, then got made redundant and was un- or under-employed for many years. I applied for hundreds and hundreds of jobs and got rejections, whilst working multiple jobs at the same time (at one point I had 4 part time jobs, a volunteer place in a local museum, and I was running my own moderately successful Etsy shop). I finally have an OK job, although I'm retraining, and I now live in one of "those" houses. I don't even own it, I rent it with 6 other people!

My parent's generation grew up with more options to get on in life. If they worked hard they really could reap the rewards. They then brought my generation up with that mindset, which failed spectacularly when the recession (also caused by people of my parents generation) hit.

So it's not surprising I think that a lot of people in my generation feel quite cheated.

I don't think it's worse across the board now. Some things are worse, a lot of things are better.

Being more mobile, you can look for jobs in other areas, it's easier to commute longer distances, easier to find jobs/houses/keep in touch with people with the internet, etc, etc.

People have become accustomed to far more disposable money then before. We never had cereal growing up, it was too expensive. I had a part time job as soon as I turned 15, and from then my parents stopped buying me personal items.

My parents were refugees, and they now own a lovely home, outright. But they NEVER went to a restaurant for lunch or dinner, they didn't go out for coffees, my DM made a lot of our clothes, and as the youngest of 5 girls I pretty much had nothing but hand me downs. They NEVER flew for holidays.

Now I can't afford to go out for dinner often, but I do go for an occasional Chinese, or McDonalds with my DC. I'll get a takeaway tea on occasion in town. I'll pay for parking rather than walk miles. I can't work full time at the moment, but I freelance through an internet freelance agency, so I can earn money working from home.

Yes, I'm struggling with my mortgage, but if I cut out all the things my parents didn't spend money on, I think I would likely struggle less.

They also didn't spend money on childcare, I was left with my DGM, I walked to and from school on my own from 7 years old, and roamed the streets with my cousins during the school holidays. I on the other hand, had to occasionally pay for childcare to get work done.

It is what it is.

Lockheart Your generation were sold a lie. I understand you feeling cheated. In your fathers generation if you were middle class, which was relatively small, life was better and easier. Different for most people though.
Every generation has its struggles. Although Anthea I too remember no entry level/casual jobs where I lived, or incredibly few. Unemployment was very high where I lived, so it was tough to get anything at all.

@RiverTam the answer is there if you look for it. Weren't UB40 named after their unemployment benefit? Today a young person would have to be proving 35 hours of job seeking in order to be claiming an allowance. The amount of grants for young music makers has plummeted. So while actually a large amount of young people are making music, very few young working class people are able to make a career out of it.

It means the character of the music industry has become more homogenous (and dominated by people from wealthy backgrounds. But it hasn't quashed protest music completely - look to grime music or the lyrics to something like Ill Manors by Plan B:

We got an Eco-friendly government
They preserve our natural habitat
Built an entire Olympic village
Around where we live without pulling down any flats
Give us free money and we don’t pay any tax
NHS healthcare, yes please many thanks
People get stabbed round here there’s many shanks
Nice knowing someone’s got our backs when we get attacked
Don’t bloody give me that
I’ll lose my temper
Who closed down the community center?
I kill time there used to be a member
What will I do now ’til September?
Schools out, rules out, get your bloody tools out
London’s burning, I predict a riot

Why aren't the young people who say they are struggling writing songs like this?

Because they’re being told repeatedly that it’s their own fault they’re struggling. They’re made to feel ashamed. Told to get on their bikes, work harder, work more hours, get better educated, reach for the stars and it’s all their own fault if they don’t. Just look at the divisive threads that pop up on MN all the time about such and such a neighbour/ sister in law/“friend” getting “full benefits”. There was a thread yesterday from a woman who is on benefits complaining that a pregnant 17 year old was getting a house “fully paid for” (she wasn’t, obviously, but don’t let facts get in the way of your outrage!)

Tbh having parents who'd survived the war and told us snippets put a lot into perspective. Then there were the grandparents and great grandparents who'd worked in factories in childhood. I thinking does help to have a longer view but it probably takes time getting there.

It's often tricky to find your adult self and a place in the world.

What I would like is rather than the inter generational hostility I see, is for us all to work together to improve life. We should be uniting to fight against zero hour contracts and the clocking on and off rubbish during quiet times.

PinkFootedGoose Ironically high unemployment in the early 80s led to a flourishing music and art scene. So many young people were unemployed that some were able to spend their time writing songs, rehearsing, etc. The Tories did implement YTS, but there were so many unemployed that they simply could not afford to implement a workfare programme for all young unemployed people.

It was much easier to get onto the property ladder back then.

But yeah, everyone has had tough times in their own way. It's ok for people to complain about it though.

UB40 was your unemployment benefit 40 form, you had to take it every sign day.
I might be remembering wrong but I think UB40 actually started with a government enterprise grant.

I think politically it's different now. Not better either. In the 80's we at least could pick a side to believe in. A cause to get behind. There won't be any marches for supermarket workers or call centre employees.
Then we were all in the shit but had a sense of camaraderie.

In 1980 I had just left a ft job that paid me £80 per month.

I couldn’t keep it going as my keep was £20 per week, my transport to get to work was £6.04 per week. Dm was threatening £25 per week if I got a payrise.
That was without clothes, lunches or anything else.
I worked in a pub 5 nights per week.

Moved into a flats share, (rent 7.50 per week) changed jobs to one that paid double.
Trsnsport went down to £1 per week and was able to buy my first place.

Lived through the early 90s with 16% mortgage.

Can’t be arsed to do it again so am planning on moving countries and have just started a business abroad.

I see where you are coming from, I’m of a similar age and can count 4 recessions we’ve lived through now. I remember mortgage interest rates of 16% crippling my parents just at the point they were able to buy their first home.

But I do think this particular one is hitting young folk harder than the last few. It’s well publicised that governments during the baby boomer years made a succession of decisions that this generation is the first to have to pay for. Combined with a property boom, an aging society and the failings in education, I do feel they are starting a few steps behind where we did. It’s been calculated that this generation is the first in along time who aren’t almost guaranteed to do better than their parents.

It’s not a competition though. That it was hard for us doesn’t make it any easier for them. They give me hope for their future as it does seem that despite the problems they are really trying hard to get on with it.