To expect university students to engage with their studies?

[PissedOffProf]

User name changed because I don't want to totally out myself.

I am a lecturer in a management department at a mid-level UK university. I have tons of experience in teaching, love my job, am nice to students and go out of my way to help them with their learning.

Increasingly, however, I am faced with classrooms of blank faces. Students who clearly have zero interest in their studies. Students who never prepare for their tutorials and have nothing to say. Students who are disruptive in class. Students who watch videos on their phones or do online shopping instead of engaging in classroom activities. Students who do not seem to have any respect for each other as they ignore the others when they speak. Students who, in the end, deliver mediocre work with zero critical thinking or creativity.

AIBU to ask why people decide to get tens of thousands of pounds in debt to spend three years of their lives being bored to death?

Not every student learns best by sitting in the lecture hall. Some students learn better by reading reasonably detailed slides in their own time; all the better if the slides suggest further reading. Why not email them the slides? The OP complains of listless students in his lectures; why not let those who learn better in the library or their room be able to do so rather than having to turn up to your lectures?

Generally the students who dont bother to turn up are the first to complain that they don’t have enough contact hours.

I'm a mature student (well not THAT mature, almost 26..) on a competitive degree course. I am faced with this daily, questions being asked to whole tutorial groups and being met with silence and blank stares. I hate the awkwardness smd end up piping up 9 times out of 10. Its sometimes feel as though I'm getting 1 to 1 tuition

Adropofreality All my slides are available online before the lecture. And a recording of the lecture after. And reading for each lecture is recommended on the slides. Do you honestly think I should, in addition, be writing their notes for them? My personal notes won’t help, they are full of things that only I understand like “bring PA WP failure in here”. I lecture largely from what is in my head, I provide slides with the main points but I talk a lot, around what is on the slides. They need to take notes from what I say to get the complete picture. Some of them take notes in the lecture, some review the lecture video after and take notes then, I think this is a good option, personally, some never take notes at all. I totally agree that it is possible to study successfully without coming to lectures, but the primary method of delivery is lectures, I can’t provide individually packaged material for every student. If they don’t choose to use the lectures then they need to do the recommended reading, what they won’t then have is my interpretation of that reading.

Why not email them the slides?
Because the slides are just a summary of the most basic points, and they often don't make sense out of context. They are not a text book. Usually they would only be useful to students who attended.
The main trouble is that many students believe getting hold of the slides or handouts is the same as going to the lecture.

Some students learn better by reading reasonably detailed slides in their own time; all the better if the slides suggest further reading. Why not email them the slides?

Slides are routinely uploaded to Blackboard or the equivalent in pretty much every UK uni. What chemenger was saying students would ask for is that she write specific notes of everything relevant to the exam and email them out. Rather different.

X post with chemenger herself!

I go to Birkbeck in London, which only does evening teaching. Probably 80% of people on my course are over 25, and I think we're generally pretty engaged as most of us are also working or looking after children (or both!) so you have to be pretty enthusiastic to take on studying as well. That said, towards the end of terms when there are deadlines and exams as well as regular seminar reading, it's painful how little anyone has to say, as it is quite hard balancing it all. I do feel sorry for our lecturers then, especially as classes go on til 9pm.

I think there’s some truth in the idea that they now see themselves as customers who should be given what they pay for.

I once ran an online discussion and ended up having a spirited conversations with myself pretending to be two anonymous students. This was something the students had asked for, by the way, then not a single one of them participated.

Wow. This is a depressing board. I must be very lucky. My students work really hard and I think they are great - sometimes they struggle with stuff, but that's because it is challenging, not because they are not trying. RG uni, postgraduate only, high marks required at entry.

I once ran an online discussion and ended up having a spirited conversations with myself pretending to be two anonymous students. This was something the students had asked for, by the way, then not a single one of them participated.

This is both hilarious and depressing.

I have two DC currently studying at English university’s ranked below the top 25 places in league tables.
Not only do they do very little in the way of studying neither have engaged in university life; clubs, societies, sports etc.
They have taken out the relevant loans and they have occasional employment when they need extra cash.
I think it is sad that they are not benefiting from the wonderful opportunities they have. Neither seriously considered other options after A-Levels despite their school and their family providing information.
I despair in some ways but it is their lives, their expense and I guess they are at least getting life experience living independently in a different part of the country (and they are certainly not rude and disrespectful).
I wish those of you working with students like my DC could get them to engage with you but I have no clue how.

I have been the student in this situation, showing up for lectures drunk from the night before, late, sleepy, disengaged. On final warning at the end of first year.

I only went to university because I couldn’t find a job and didn’t really know what else to do with my life and uni just seemed like a cool new experience and something do at just turned 18.

The difference is though I did actual choose a degree I was interested in and buckled down and ended up with a first and an award from the uni. And now actual work in the career to do with my degree which I think can be rare these days too. Maybe give your students a chance to grow up a little? Moving from home can be tough life adjustment

Some of my favourite students confessed to me years ago that they had a running competition throughout my course to see how many of them could take their trousers off in class without me noticing. Either they were totally successful in doing it or they chickened out because I never saw any of them so it. I don't know what this adds to the conversation but I still find it funny. They are all very senior engineers now, I wonder if they take their trousers off in their offices.

For those saying students think they’re entitled to the degree and being spoonfed – if you’d paid £30k for something, that you’re only paying for not for itself but to give you access to the job market, wouldn’t you want it given to you on a plate?

But they're not paying for a degree, are they? They're paying for the opportunity to study for a degree. Access to a university, to lectures, seminars and tutorials, to 1:1 meetings with lecturers, to libraries and other facilities, to the opportunity to meet and exchange ideas with other people studying the subject.

If people just want to buy a degree, they can do that online, with no effort at all.

For those saying students think they’re entitled to the degree and being spoonfed – if you’d paid £30k for something, that you’re only paying for not for itself but to give you access to the job market, wouldn’t you want it given to you on a plate?

As a PP pointed out. You aren't buying your degree or your graduate job. You are paying for the opportunity to study at university and all that entails.This is a huge misconception and I blame the government and the complete lack of information surrounding the introduction of higher tuition fees.

There is an assumption that universities are now getting an additional £6k+ per student when in fact universities are getting less money than before 2012 and in rise in fees.

Pre- 2012 students paid around £3k and the government gave the universities the additional money it cost to run their degree programmes. From 2012 the government has removed most of their funding and have put the focus on the students paying for their degrees. Uni's aren't benefiting from rise in fees one bit.
In addition to this the amount of government funding still given directly to uni's became directly related to the types of courses they offered. Uni's that offer science based courses get more than those that offer arts and humanities -because science courses cost more to run.

To top it all off uni's are having to invest significantly in the student experience and facilities because student expectations have risen considerably. A high number of universities are in financial dire straits.

Maybe give your students a chance to grow up a little? Moving from home can be tough life adjustment

Most of my undergrad's are commuter students - as in they live at home.
Those that have moved away actually perform much better

I hear you OP... I'm considered to be an expert in a fairly niche field, so have contact with a few undergrads wanting to know more about my specific field of study every month. I supply reading lists, links, am always happy to discuss further.

A while later I'll read their dissertations on my niche subject in which they make howling errors, are lazy, rely entirely on a few cliches, and quite often complain that it was impossible to find enough information on the subject.

At which point I yearn to say 'Do you know how I got to be an expert in niche subject? I got off my arse and bloody well worked for it without expecting someone to google it for me.'

But for the rest of their lives they'll say 'actually, I did my dissertation in niche subject, so I know what I'm talking about.' They bloody don't. And they don't seem to see why they should put any work in.

I think sometimes people have the wrong idea about university. They see a subject they think will be interesting and study that. They don’t have the passion to get to know the subject inside out, they just want to know the “interesting” bits. These people we should direct to the library to borrow a book on the subject. It will be much quicker for them.
Yes, some lectures can be boring but if you really want to be there and really do have a passion for your studies then most of them won’t be!

Really happy to hear it's not just me who feels like this as a lecturer.

I often wonder if people would be more motivated if they actually had to pay upfront: but then you would have an almighty class divide. The sector is a mess.

This is depressing. I don't remember it being like this at the uni I went to (10 yrs ago). Not a RG but consistently high rated uni. I did a hunanities subject and I'm pretty sure a small percentage of the mark was participation in seminars. I don't remember any where nobody spoke.

I did have a friend who got in trouble for low attendance, does that not happen anymore? She had to go in for a talk with our personal tutor.

Yes attendance monitoring is taken very seriously.

It all worked better when university was free but very difficult to get into, and every middle class teen didn't just expect to go automatically. Unconditional offers must have been a nail in the coffin.

Paying and settings goals for 50% of school leavers to go have just made undergraduate degrees into bought commodities for many.

Blueskies what about working class teens? Should they just know their place and not aspire to HE?