To expect university students to engage with their studies?

[PissedOffProf]

User name changed because I don't want to totally out myself.

I am a lecturer in a management department at a mid-level UK university. I have tons of experience in teaching, love my job, am nice to students and go out of my way to help them with their learning.

Increasingly, however, I am faced with classrooms of blank faces. Students who clearly have zero interest in their studies. Students who never prepare for their tutorials and have nothing to say. Students who are disruptive in class. Students who watch videos on their phones or do online shopping instead of engaging in classroom activities. Students who do not seem to have any respect for each other as they ignore the others when they speak. Students who, in the end, deliver mediocre work with zero critical thinking or creativity.

AIBU to ask why people decide to get tens of thousands of pounds in debt to spend three years of their lives being bored to death?

The Young Ones. I mean, it's not supposed to be genuine, but it's not supposed to be a fantasy or alternative universe, either. It was supposed to be relatable. When was that set, early 1980s? Rose-tinted memories, guys.

Languages graduate from the 90s here. I'm sure most of us were engaged with our subject and were genuinely interested in it (we had to be, to get the hand of Russian grammar!) and supported each other with it. The interest levels of the lectures and tutorials obviously varied, but we were quite fond of our lecturers and there was a feeling that we had to give something in return, so as not to let them down. Perhaps it being a small department had a lot to do with it.

One professor would say things like, "once you've read Dostoevsky, your lives will never be the same again...", well I'm not sure about that, but it's as if we were all privileged to be studying something so special and that did rub off on us. A different era - not so many (online) distractions, apart from our social lives of course!

I am saddened at some of the experiences described by lecturers above. It seems students' attitudes have completely changed.

I loved my degree subject (biology), but some lectures and tutorials were boring, and a chore. I struggled to stay awake half the time. People were interested in interesting lectures, and unfortunately many were not.

I feel bad for the students in my classes who are working and engaged. The ones who’re behaving like bottom set Y9 in a failing school ruin it for everyone. I am fed up of hearing myself telling people to stop talking unless invited to speak in classes.

There are some great students but it’s impossible to learn when the social situation forces students to pretend they haven’t done any work otherwise they’ll get death stares from the ones who’re doing nothing. It’s very hard to turn this around. A poor student in my class today actually felt abused by her classmates horrified response to her admitting she’d written some of her dissertation already (I know because she told me).

And the university management don’t care. They care that we give everyone a first or 2:I whether they deserve it or not, that we ensure the students are happy (which means unchallenged and having their egos boosted) and that we get as many bums on seats (or at least fees in their bank) as possible.

I also think schools ill-prepare students for university life. I got 100% in half of my A Levels but had never done anything like self-directed learning before.

I agree with the idea that all students should be over 23. OU students are the best. There's no grade inflation at the OU either, they really have to work for it and they do.

Re. the young ones, I got the impression that Rik was engaged with his studies, and he wrote poetry. Even Vyvyan knew some medical stuff.

Chemenger I think youre right. National Service all the way!!

On a serious note though, I think there is huge pressure on kids to make choices at a young age (Im thinking opting for A Level subjects that could skew what you would be eligible for at uni level at a later date at 16) that may change over time.

What I wanted to do at 16 isnt what I wanted to do at 18 and at 21 I was having my first child and saw my academic future going in a very different direction. I chose my degree at 29 because it was something that I loved and am passionate about. Therefore, I am a good student!

I like engaging in lectures, even if it is slightly off topic, because I learn something. I no longer care if my question is stupid... and half the time its the question that most of the kids wanted to ask but didnt. Getting older and not giving a shit about other people's opinions has a great deal to be said for it.

Im lucky enough where I live that at 23 you are considered a mature student, so (with exceptions eg medicine) you can get onto a course that at 18 you may not have had the points to get onto.

I see no harm in kids going off after school and getting a job, or experience in what they think theyd like to do to see if it really is what they are prepared to commit their time and money in uni for four odd years.

(Unless they go for a Gap Yaaar teaching pottery and making wind chimes to under priveleged kids only to come back and bore everyone senseless about how soul enriching, enlightening and how they discovered their true selves and now are ready to live their 'best lives')

^^ tongue in cheek there. Everyone loves wind chimes?

When people pay 27000 pounds for something they don't expect to have to work for it too
Students now feel that they are customers.
And customers demand things for their money.
I think if we want to get back to the days when university education was a privilege that one earns, then we have to stop charging students through the nose for the privilege.
We cant have it all ways

I think by the end of a degree, no matter how much passion or interest you started with, most people are just done with it. I'm in my final year of a maths degree. First year was boring because it was all compulsory modules and I had done most of it before. So I did the bare minimum and came out with A 1st.

2nd and 3rd year I had more choice, took some interesting modules that I put effort into. Also some boring modules that I had to do and spent half the lectures on my phone. Again, put the effort in at exam time and got 80%.

4th year I'm just done with maths. I can't wait for my degree to be over so I can do something different. And mental health issues aren't helping. So if I do make it to lectures, I spend most of them trying not to fall asleep. Not a slight on your lecturing style, I'm just ill and not madly interested. Might scrape a pass if I'm lucky.

Also, anxiety means I would never contribute in lectures or tutorials. I get stressed if I'm sat with a marked piece of work and my friend asks me how to do some of it.

a) There are to many students going to university (way to many).
b) Most will never pay back their loans.
c) Unis are complicit, handing out unconditional offers like they are sweets.

I remember doing my first year Geography degree in New Zealand nearly 15 years ago - there were only two first year Geo papers so I had to find another 5 papers, two of which I only took for 'something to take'. IME papers students are forced to take mean they are dis-engaged from the star.

One of them was management, so sorry OP it was boring as hell - the material was dry so I really did not engage much in the tuts at all and only went to half the lectures (but did read through the slides and write core notes). That said a week before the exam I did study through the text book and I got ok grades. I went to Uni with a few management students who only did it because they thought it would be easy or had no idea what else to do.

The other paper was comparative politics, which was pretty tedious as anyone with basic politics knowledge would be able understand the course material by just looking at the slides so again paid little attention.

My first year was split evenly between three subjects.

Subject 1, I went to all the lectures, and at the end of the year, got a third in my exams.
Subject 2, I went to half the lectures and got a 2:1.
Subject 3, i went to basically none of the lectures and got a first.

The lesson was clear, and I never went to another lecture

All of you here who are getting great marks while not going to any lectures - Please keep doing this. It's much better for you not to be in attendance than sit there with a blank face surfing on your phone. This gives at least some chance to the students who are there for the knowledge and not just the piece of paper.

JustAnotherMillennial, it sounds that you did not examine the structure of your course before deciding to sign up for it. Why would you knowingly choose to spend so much time studying things that you find boring?

its not just the teenagers at uni. im on a grad programme where we have to do a degree alongside. all paid for. you'd have thought that these kids would be ecstatic that they are getting a degree for free and would just grab those opportunities. but no. its whine whine whine, cant find this, cant find that, hee hee hee i havent done any work arent i so bad.
im 15/20 years older than them and am so grateful for the opportunity to get back into work, but their attitude sucks.

"Chemenger I think youre right. National Service all the way!!"

Having grown up in a country where this was compulsory I really cannot recommend it. The tedium of having to sit through other people's National Service reminiscences! and I never noticed that it made the lads who did it one iota more mature. SUCH a relief for the rest of us when it stopped!

btw my feeling is that the main reason students don't contribute to seminars is that they are daunted by the thought of everybody else being cleverer than them- they feel it is presumptuous for them to say something

the fear of failure, of not being good enough, competitive enough, is deeply engrained in the present generation

a few tricks to make everybody contribute makes a big difference

I'm sure this varies widely by university and course, but I found it difficult to really engage as my lectures/tutorials usually had 100+ students in them. My lecturers did have office hours, but it was generally one hour, once or twice a week, and there would be queues down the corridor if you wanted to speak to a lecturer about something. I found it really difficult to find anyone to speak to about topics I didn't understand, and as it was a maths degree a lot of it wasn't stuff I could find much information about in books or online, particularly in my final year when my modules became much more specialised.

I did a few elective modules from a different school and the way it was run made a world of difference. Lecturers who cared and actually seemed to prepare for their lectures, smaller tutorial groups with the opportunity to ask questions, open door office policies that meant I could pop in whenever I was struggling with something.

If I'd have known how uninterested most of the lecturers who taught the bulk of my degree were, I wouldn't have bothered going to university, or at least not with that degree at that institution.

Chemenger - I think you work at my uni! I'm a lecturer too and agree with all you've said! Where I work we have to give the students a marking criteria, an example essay, a template (so they just fill in the gaps basically), advise them of all the reading and where to find it, offer exam and essay prep sessions, and basically tell them exactly what to write. Ridiculously, some still fail!!! And very very few actually complete anything half decent!!

We set an exam this year for final year students, where we basically gave them the answer 4 months in advance! And reminded them if it each week! - all they had to do was read the flippin answer paper 30 minutes before the exam - they didn't even need to have attended any lectures or seminars all term! - and guess what! .... we still had 4 people fail!!!!!

It's a complete joke!

There are some great students that genuinely are engaged and can engage in critical thinking, but they are very few and far between. They do exist though, so I don't want to tarnish all students with the same brush. But that said, the vast majority I see want to be spoon fed everything. 'Depth learning' terrifies them!! - ahh what's that?? How do I do that?? Can't you just give me things to rote learn??

I think it's worrying. We are churning out graduates that cannot think for themselves, that need to be told in great detail exactly how to do everything, and that have no initiative, and are entitled. As an employer as well as a lecturer, I am scared for my future workforce.

Oh, and the other very worrying thing is the inflation of marks !! I have honestly seen complete drivel, which is illegible and not answering the question, being awarded pass marks or even 2.2's and in some very scary cases, 2.1's, because, well, they mentioned something vaguely relevant to the topic ()

It is unbelievable the lengths some students will go to fail. There is one set of three principles, each with no more than three words, which I literally repeat in every lecture (in different contexts) and continually reinforce. The number of students who, faced with the little warm up three mark question in the exam "State the three basic principles of X", write half a page of nonsense about some very specific technique.

That said I've also had answers to questions that have pushed my understanding and addressed things in ways I wouldn't have thought of - they are the truly first class students. I always say to final year students doing projects that I can't tell them what will get them a first class mark because it is defined as "exceeds expectations" so it will be something I haven't thought of. This makes many of them very angry.

Having finished my first semester at uni doing a leadership and management degree. I’d love to have some lectures who have a fucking clue.

Out of the six we’ve had so far four are totally hopeless don’t seem to understand industry and the real world unless it’s a massive company.

A finance lecturer who can’t even read the words on his own fucking power points. Let alone have a clue how accounting works in the real world and not in some fucking mysterious place.

That said quite enjoying bits.

And to add having visited 3 Russell group unis recently with my DD and seeing how awful the “sales” process is. I really wonder who employs these people and is this why the country seems fucked. I’m hoping when she goes the reality is a lot better than it looks.

And I’m talking two of the leading universities in the subject so not even scraping the barrel.

I'm writing a new course at the moment. Inspired by this thread I've just added a slide that asks them whether they prefer slightly wordy slides that I might occasionally read verbatim (because I've thought a lot about how to say something clearly and concisely) or do they want skeleton slides that they will have to take notes on what I say.

I know they will choose an option that isn't available - that I write them notes of everything relevant to the exam and email them to them.

You'll be pleased to hear that there is a (relevant) picture on one of my slides and I've spent a huge amount of time making an animated diagram of what could quite easily have been a list, so my training was not in vain.

I saw this in action 20+ years ago when doing law conversion. I went to a university and diploma in law. Some people spent a lot more at an institution just doing the professional conversion course and vocational training.

The difference was immense. They paid more but really were spoon fed in some subjects. In criminal law they had course notes that it’s the relevant sections of judgments of the important cases. I got a list of every case the lecturer was going to refer to on the course whether they were vital or touched on in passing and learnt how to use a law library.

I think some of their vocational stuff was a lot better, and I did borrow notes on land law but I was forced to engage with the law to pass.