To expect university students to engage with their studies?

[PissedOffProf]

User name changed because I don't want to totally out myself.

I am a lecturer in a management department at a mid-level UK university. I have tons of experience in teaching, love my job, am nice to students and go out of my way to help them with their learning.

Increasingly, however, I am faced with classrooms of blank faces. Students who clearly have zero interest in their studies. Students who never prepare for their tutorials and have nothing to say. Students who are disruptive in class. Students who watch videos on their phones or do online shopping instead of engaging in classroom activities. Students who do not seem to have any respect for each other as they ignore the others when they speak. Students who, in the end, deliver mediocre work with zero critical thinking or creativity.

AIBU to ask why people decide to get tens of thousands of pounds in debt to spend three years of their lives being bored to death?

I'm wondering whether I'm starry eyed or just lucky about the uni I teach at- but I seem to get some really interesting seminar discussions. The one I did yesterday brought up plenty of ideas that I hadn't thought of myself- and these are first-years. They talked the whole time, once I had got the discussion going.

I fail essays if they are complete drivel or don't answer the question.

Some of my colleagues do show a sample essay, but that is so the students can discuss in seminar what its good and bad points are- never on the same essay question they will be writing on themselves.

I give them essay prep but that is discussing how you set about finding good literature in the library- not about telling them what books to read. It's getting them to think about how you would write a good commentary on whatever image or primary source I may choose for the exam- what are worthwhile questions to ask, how you analyse a vase or a poem. It's about how to critique the secondary literature.

I also see some pretty amazing students: students with serious health problems who have to retake the course several times and still nail it in the end, students who write their essays in the night while looking after a dying family member in the day, students who face horrendous odds just to be able to study.

I'm proud of my students.

I used to work in a university as an administrator, and frequently despaired of the students and the lecturers - the students because so many were lazy, rude, disorganised and immature even in the final year of their PhD, and the lecturers for enabling the students. Example: final year PhD student is required to complete x number of credits as well as his thesis submission. Most if not all complete the credits early in their studies as the credit classes are supposed to support their research. Final semester he wishes to register for a class that’s a full year class, even though half the year has gone. He demands to be registered and calls me a bitch for not doing it, as well telling me I’m just a stupid secretary (I’m a Masters grad but anyway). He didn’t know the class existed, but a list of research classes is provided via email yearly and published in their portal. Academic demands the student be registered discounting the half year missed. This was not uncommon, I remember a group of undergraduate Chinese students registering in Semester 2 but registered for full year classes. Highlighted the missed lectures, told it wasn’t my concern. Yes it was, because I had to process the appeals when all 19 students failed the class!

If you’re going to study, be committed, engaged, organised and be polite to the admin staff. Frequent flyers who annoy admin staff are then last on the list for spare graduation ceremony tickets. It was the only revenge we had!

I totally agree that I am in awe of what some students overcome to succeed.

not that is abysmal. I like to think we would suspend someone who called you a bitch and stupid. I really really hope we would. Then they could have done the whole class the next year!

I don't think some parental attitudes help. I've seen thread after thread on here with people saying they want their child to go to a 'top uni', want them to do a subject the big companies will like.. Maybe the students would be more engaged if they did subjects they actually wanted to do at the places they wanted to do them?

No one on my course ever shows any interest because it's turned out to be harder than expected and it's just really dull. The lecturers go through the motions, the content is bland etc. It couldn't be less interesting. I'm struggling to start even the smallest assignments. This was meant to be the only thing I've ever properly been interested in!

Sadly it's (partly) because universities now have a vested interest in awarding higher grades at the end, so none of the students think that failing is a real prospect. I suspect that if the students know they could be kicked out at the end of the first year if they failed their exams (happened to a friend of mine at the end of our first year 25 years ago), most of them would be working a bit harder.

I also think we need to stop telling children that they should all go to university. Many students would be much better off (and not just financially) just getting a job, rather than putting that off for three years of partying and irresponsibility. University has become a way of delaying adulthood for a lot of people.

I'm currently disengaged with my degree at a top level university because I'm spiralling with mental health issues I've been fighting since I was six. Everything feels like it's too much and I'm hardly keeping my head above water.

Learning I’m sorry to hear that. Please speak to someone at your university, there should be help available. Either a personal tutor or someone in student support or student welfare will be able to help you navigate the system. I have seen students succeed despite mental health problems, and go on to successful careers, it can be done. Despite what we have all been saying the vast majority of lecturers do care about students and would try to help you. On a practical note, long term mental health issues are often classed as disabilities, which means that adjustments can be made to make all aspects of the university more accessible for you. Please ask for help, see your GP, your counselling service or student welfare as soon as you can. Talk to your tutor or any member of staff who you feel comfortable approaching.

@chemenger, I've tried. My uni is quite well known for being crap at supporting and dealing with students and mental health issues. They just recommend struggling students go on a LOA until they're better enough to come back, and I can't afford to do that at all. I've never met my personal tutor as he never responds to my emails.

Learning, that sounds really shit and I am so sorry to hear that is happening to you. Not all universities are like this- and none should be! Is there a senior tutor or anybody else who is above your personal tutor that you could contact. The university should be there for you!

I am also sorry that you have been reading this thread which seems to be putting all the blame on students, when there are actually wonderful students out there struggling and really wanting to do well. Don't pay attention to it, think of it as the private rant of someone who's had a bad day.

I agree with Cory, and she gives good advice about seeking out a senior tutor. What you see here is people venting frustration for mutual amusement, I’m sure in real life every academic here would help a student in need. I want to shake your personal tutor. In some ways I’m reluctant to say this but probably you should look for a female academic to approach. I have PM’d you.

Learning, this thread isn't about students like you at all.
Your personal tutor sounds crap. I agree, find a female lecturer you feel comfortable with.

They have probably also done the same at school but been accepted by your uni with mediocre results or UIF offers.

Damn, I was really hoping some lecturers on this thread would comment on this from the second post

It is also soul destroying to see a once reasonable A Level student down tools once they have offers like these and I am not surprised an off shot of this is continued lack of engagement once they are at university.

I’m in Scotland so unconditional offers are the norm for most of my students and always have been. We don’t give unconditionals to A level applicants.

My mother started university just as national service in the UK had finally ended. She's often commented on the differences between "men" who'd just done national service, and boys straight from school.

I do think that it would be much better to strengthen routes back into university education so that students who don't have a driving need to study "X" can do something else for a while and then go to university when they know what they want to achieve there, and why, without being disadvantaged by having stepped off the education treadmill. (Having said that, I myself was desperate to start uni as I'd been bored at school)

I completely understand OP. I mainly teach post grads who are fabulous-completely engaged with the subject, go above and beyond and are generally brilliant.

I also do some UG teaching and it's a whole different ball game. I struggle to get them to interact and they want me to tell them exactly what to do. They also argue with me about their marks!

It's mainly due to the consumerisation of HE. They believe they are paying for a service and buying a degree. That and the fact that all they have been taught is how to pass exams...not think for themselves.

I teach a level and often discuss university options with students. Over the last few years students have changed from wanting to go to university to learn something that they love to just going to university to be a student and to end up with a degree. They don’t really care about the courses they just want to be given a degree. They think it’s their entitlement. Unconditional offers don’t help as it means that many students stop trying. It drives me mad.
If it makes you feel any better it’s the same at A level. I try to make them discuss concepts or do presentations but the kids won’t engage or cry off presentations. They just want to google answers rather than reading a book.

Don't get me started in unconditional offers!!!

Partly this is the fault of the 50% of students to go to university aim, but principally it's due to the fact that you can barely get a white-collar job nowadays without a degree. Firms who even 20 years ago would've been taking school-leavers demand “2.1 or above”. So anyone who wants a white-collar job has no choice but to go to university, even if they're not interested. Blame the firms.

For those saying students think they’re entitled to the degree and being spoonfed – if you’d paid £30k for something, that you’re only paying for not for itself but to give you access to the job market, wouldn’t you want it given to you on a plate?

When I were a lad, I was always top of the class. 100% routinely on tests. I kept my head down but now and again the teacher would ask a question and as no-one else put their hand up, I would. 99% of the time I got the answer right but every now and again I'd make an error and get it wrong, at which point most of the class would have a good sneer: “Aaaah! ADrop doesn’t know it all after all!” That’s essentially crippling to a teenager (and is in line with the British habit of resenting the “swotty” kids)

When I got to university I realised quite quickly that I wasn’t top of the class any more – that there were those going onto firsts who understood it all intuitively whereas I plainly was not. So in tutorials and seminars I kept my head down, because I still feared that if I tried to answer a question, I might get it wrong (and this was now far more true than it was at school) and that in fluffing it I might get the same chorus of sneering (which I now realise was not true)

I ended up with a 2.1, and this was at a Russell Group uni, so I was neither stupid nor uninterested in my subject, but I can see that some of my tutors might have thought “Why does ADrop never answer any of the questions I throw out to the room? Is he just busking it?”

chemenger

I know they will choose an option that isn't available - that I write them notes of everything relevant to the exam and email them to them.

Not every student learns best by sitting in the lecture hall. Some students learn better by reading reasonably detailed slides in their own time; all the better if the slides suggest further reading. Why not email them the slides? The OP complains of listless students in his lectures; why not let those who learn better in the library or their room be able to do so rather than having to turn up to your lectures?

Because you need a 2:1 to get into a graduate program in order to have a career. Let’s be frank. You probably weren’t their first choice. I am currently at uni. Russell group, well respected yada yada. Many of the modules are taught poorly. Many of the tutors/lectures don’t prepare themselves. The denends on my time are quite unreasonable. I am expected to attend tutorials or seminars for one to two hours at a time to sit there and listen to a tutor ask the same question for which no one has prepared over and over. When I ask questions of my own their answers are often out of date or just plain I’m wrong. Obviously not all of them are like this. I always prepare for the good tutorials but the mediocre ones I ignore in favour of more pressing matters and cram at the end during the revision period. I don’t get anything out of the tutorials anyway so I may as well use the time to do something productive like applying for jobs or online shopping.