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#shameonyouwarwick

793 replies

smcbride · 31/01/2019 07:42

Warwick Police haven't prosecuted anyone for these vile rape threats and Warwick uni are now letting (some of?) the perpetrators back in to study at the same university alongside those they discussed threatening to rape.

Would you be happy sending your child here?

Warwick students suspended over rape threats allowed to return earlyly*_

OP posts:
ReflectentMonatomism · 07/02/2019 06:36

Indeed. The part that jumped out at me (I wanted to Fisk the article, but I thought it less confrontational to see what others said) was the same claim GC points to: I went to see a tutor. He had heard four or five accounts of students being sexually assaulted a week. This is one tutor, in one department, at one university.

Given the SSRs at Warwick, and the way tutor groups are usually set up, the clear implication is that the author contends that the typical student is reporting about eight sexual assaults a year (30 academic weeks, say 15 tutees, so 120 reports per year over 15 tutees). Given it’s an article about misogyny and therefore the unstated implication is that this is reports by women, then more like sixteen reported sexual assaults per student per year.

It seems unlikely.

In my department, at a comparable but larger university, reported (in the sense of “spoke to a tutor or welfare”, not “made a formal complaint and started a formal process”) assaults are as GC suggests something that doesn’t happen in most years. It’s at most one report per thousand student-years, and I suspect less than that. I don’t dispute that reporting rates are probably very low, but it defies belief that Warwick has something like ten thousand times the rate of reporting we see, or alternatively ten thousand times the rate of assault.

I’m not sanguine about, for example, rugby clubs and I suspect that Warwick has that problem on a larger scale than some other places. But they’re a relatively contained problem, and the idea that rugby clubs prowl campuses assaulting people at random is ludicrous: the behaviour within the clubs is appalling and it does sometimes spill out into the wider campus community, but they are not Genghis Khan’s hordes, which would be required to sit with the claimed numbers.

The rest of her complaints are a laundry list of stuff that, to be blunt, would happen (and probably at a higher rate) in any randomly selected community of fifty thousand people. A large university has a population of a small market town, and - shockingly! - a small market town will have crime, and racism, and misogyny. Universities don’t reflect society around them as well as they should, but are usually safer and better behaved than a similarly sized group of randoms.

No-one is saying that what happened at Warwick is sui generis and I suspect most universities are this week thinking “There but for the grace of God go us”. I think their discipline process was either defective or misapplied, and for that they deserve criticism: in particular, they were entirely blind to the optics, never mind the propriety, of putting the Press Director in as Investigating Officer for what they must have known had the potential to be an explosive case. Exeter had happened by the time this case broke, so they can’t claim to be totally adrift in new waters.

But Warwick is just another large, significantly privately educated, significantly Chinese, significantly STEM university. There’s no reason to believe that the behaviour of its students is four orders of magnitude worse than peer institutions which I, and I suspect GC, know well. And you are far, far safer in a university community than you are outside it, and to imply otherwise is just mad.

Intohellbutstayingstrong · 07/02/2019 07:08

I simply don’t buy the claim that individual tutors are hearing stories of five sexual assaults a week

Why not?

ReflectentMonatomism · 07/02/2019 07:14

Because it would imply every single student in the university was reporting a sexual assault to their tutor every month. Assuming they were doing that in private, it would mean every member of staff with teaching responsibilities was spending two or three hours a week dealing with complaints of sexual assault, while not telling anyone. It would mean that major discipline cases would be a daily event even if only 1% of complaints were made formal. Everyone would be sitting on discipline panels.

They aren’t.

Grimbles · 07/02/2019 09:25

There are vile comments/personal comments being made about people who were part of the process and that is having consequences now. Being called rapists/rape apologisers and worse.

It's just words though...

No one has actually been hurt...

It's just private bantz...

Etc.

ReflectentMonatomism · 07/02/2019 09:41

And abuse directed at people involved in the process presumably isn't coming from people with whom those people share flats, and isn't being physically thrust under their nose by a group of men they see every day.

LittleSpace · 07/02/2019 10:49

dd is from a normal state comprehensive and she has not encountered any problems. Her subject is male dominated too. She has been there one and half years now & is really enjoying it. She did mention that the rugby club were banned from something but it is a minority of people in a vast university.

She would definitely speak her mind if she came across anything horrible.

cnamechanger · 07/02/2019 10:50

I hope Warwick sue the Guardian really after reading that. That's a gossip column masquerading as an article.

ReflectentMonatomism · 07/02/2019 10:59

Her subject is male dominated too.

Which is an interesting discussion.

The St Andrews case is rather different and the ringleader wasn't UK-educated. But he's the only STEM student in the whole sordid collection of cases. It's all Law, History, MFL: subjects which can hardly be said to be male-dominated, either in terms of the students or the staff. There's an interesting piece of research to be done on whether that's happenstance, or whether it says something about the perpetrators motives, methods and mentality, or whether it says something about victims' willingness to report, or whether it says something about staff's willingness to pursue, or what. One can speculate, but no more than that.

You'd naively expect there to be more of this shit in STEM, particularly in TE. The question would be whether that's true and it's concealed, or that's true and it's normalised, or that's untrue, or what.

Someone who wants to do a piece of sociology field work, and has a strong stomach, might like to consider it as a PhD.

sonatuni · 07/02/2019 11:12

That Guardian article doesn’t bear any resemblance to the experience of my DS and his (mixed) group of friends when they lived in campus last year. In fact the complete opposite - one of the things regularly talked about is how ‘safe’ the campus feels.
The library and other facilities are excellent - just as busy as other unis.
Two girls also started there this year from his comp. They love it.
This whole incident has been very badly handled but that article just doesn’t reflect life for the majority of students at Warwick.

LittleSpace · 07/02/2019 11:18

I agree. It is very safe and the facilities are amazing.

danceyourselfsilly · 07/02/2019 11:19

I also agree the Guardian article is pretty disjointed and not well written. It did sound like it was written by a disgruntled student. However I disagree with Reflectent about the factual reporting of sexual assaults. I think what the writer was trying to say was that the tutor had "heard" about four or five accounts of students being sexually assaulted per week. Not all in his department but "heard" throughout the university was what I took it to mean.
You say in your uni "assaults are something that doesn’t happen in most years. It’s at most one report per thousand student-years, and I suspect less than that" are you absolutely certain about that? Is there correct process and/or do students feel comfortable reporting these things. As one victim at Warwick said they were threatened about speaking out about such things.
Also remember this from an earlier OP...
"a colleague was at Warwick a few years ago. She wasn’t surprised about it at all. She said there was a real culture and normalisation of sexual harassment on campus and was even afraid to be in her communal kitchen on her own"

sonatuni · 07/02/2019 11:23

There was something that they all complained about when a few of his friends came to our house. I couldn’t remember what it was so asked DS. They all said the dryers in the campus launderette were rubbish !

ReflectentMonatomism · 07/02/2019 11:51

dance, which I actually wrote was "It’s at most one report per thousand student-years, and I suspect less than that. I don’t dispute that reporting rates are probably very low" which is exactly the point you are challenging me on, and you edited my "reported assaults" to "assaults". I'm sorry for putting a parenthesised clause in between "reported" and "assaults", but I don't think my writing was that unclear.

I think what the writer was trying to say was that the tutor had "heard" about four or five accounts of students being sexually assaulted per week

That's certainly not remotely my experience in a similar university. It's possible that someone who is in a role like university senior tutor might be in a position to see and know the actual rate, but a random academic in a random department would have no visibility of that. As the article says "remember this is one tutor in one department", I'm not sure your interpretation of what she wrote is accurate, either.

danceyourselfsilly · 07/02/2019 12:27

Do random academics not have an idea of what may be going on? I understand that discussing particular incidents would not be allowed however...

ReflectentMonatomism · 07/02/2019 12:48

Do random academics not have an idea of what may be going on?

In general, no. Universities, particularly pre-92 ones, are very silo'd. There are very few forums, either formal or informal, in which student issues spanning departments would be discussed, and the number of people with knowledge of the student body as a whole will be very small. Most issues are dealt with within departments, and a few end up in whatever faculty/college/etc units the university organises into. Most academics won't have a comprehensive knowledge of what's happening with students in their own department, never mind more widely, which is why staff-student liaison committees exist at departmental level.

How do you think someone in French would find out what's happening on the ground in Civ Eng, or vice versa?

danceyourselfsilly · 07/02/2019 18:06

How do you know the statistics for your uni then?

ReflectentMonatomism · 07/02/2019 18:15

I don't, nor did I claim to. As I wrote, dancing, In my department, at a comparable but larger university, reported ... assaults are as GC suggests something that doesn’t happen in most years.

Both GC and I have said that we know the levels in our own departments, but no more widely than that. I suspect that is true for 95% of academics.

GCAcademic · 08/02/2019 10:56

I teach in a department with predominately female students, and my experience is in line with that of their colleagues in my department. The last time one of my tutees disclosed a sexual assault to me was in 2015. And that did not take place on campus, nor was the attacker another student. I don’t deny that sexual assault happens on campus, but as someone with 20 personal tutees, all of them would be reporting sexual assault to me every month if what the author of that article states is true.

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