#shameonyouwarwick

[smcbride]

Warwick Police haven't prosecuted anyone for these vile rape threats and Warwick uni are now letting (some of?) the perpetrators back in to study at the same university alongside those they discussed threatening to rape.

Would you be happy sending your child here?

Warwick students suspended over rape threats allowed to return earlyly*_

@KittensAndCake that is how one of DC described them, saying that is how they had come across, and said that one of them in particular always seemed lovely, kind and just a really nice person.

Whether that was all an act, I don't know. My DC doesn't know, but doesn't believe so, rather that they were silly, naive, and got swept into something that they shouldn't. This ONLY refers to some of the 11 that were in the group, didn't comment, but also didn't do anything about it (and I agree, they are equally as culpable). People may disagree with that, but that is my DC's opinion. Few people are totally bad (I have worked with convicted terrorists who, when I met with them were lovely, charming people) and that is why when the uni requested a statement from my DC it had to include the side of those people that my DC knew.

I agree with you about not understanding why they didn't apologise and move quietly to another uni.

Ultimately what really scares me, is that the perpetrators views are so deeply entrenched - what are they capable of them doing in the future? There is talk of them changing identity, so if any woman started dating them, even if they googled, they would have no idea about all of this.

Have only read the first page but saw it didn't take long for the 'tgeir lives are ruined' defense to be trotted out. In what way are their lives ruined? They are back at uni with the support of the powers that be. They will no doubt go on to high powered careers, marriages to women who have also been taught to believe their lives are super important and can't be 'ruined' for a bit of vile misogyny, and will fast become the next generation of the establishment. Sexual violence ruins the lives of the victims, and nobody in power gives a shit about them because they're women.

I am told that some of the boys involved (not the main protagonists) are very shy, quiet types, described as "kind" and "gentle". They see themselves as very awkward with girls, and the sort never to have girlfriends.

Sorry but the world is full of shy people who don’t threaten to mutilate and rape in a vain attempt to appear more Alpha. A woman’s right to feel safe is should not be compromised or trumped a boys need to fit in.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius

I'm so sorry for what you suffered - but am glad that you are still able to recognise the suffering of others, and to condemn it.

Words can and do destroy lives and limit potential of wonderful, intelligent sensitive people.

Bullying also has the potential to turn people who would otherwise be kind and generous into unhappy, resentful, vindictive ,bullies themselves, who lose the ability to emphasise with others, and indeed, can't even see a problem when others are similarly abused. (We've seen evidence of this on this thread)

Bullying is NEVER acceptable.

No culture should condone it.

The History department has responded on Twitter to someone who said that staff should refuse to teach the perpetrators - apparently they are not legally allowed to do this. Some of the individuals teaching in the department will be young female PhD students. I would have really struggled to deal with that at that stage in my career (I wouldn’t be happy about it even now).

I've just been reading a disussion on this on The Student Room forum (a site for prospective and current students with a slight Russell Group bias). I was shocked by the number of male students defending the Warwick kids, there was genuine bewilderment that they should face any sanctions at all for everyday 'bantz'

This is imo part of what is frightening.

It is what has gone on in Warwick that has shone a light on it, but to think it doesn't/isn't happening elsewhere would be extremely naive.

*We all encounter this type of 'banter' in our everyday lives

I'm delighted to say that I don't. But then I work in a very enlightened environment where this sort of behaviour simply doesn't happen.

That's possibly why I'm so shocked, tbh.

qumquat

You've hit the nail on the head. They're the next generation of David Camerons.

My DC doesn't know, but doesn't believe so, rather that they were silly, naive, and got swept into something that they shouldn't.

Then at the very least you might ask the question "so what is a degree in History at the University of Warwick teaching in terms of graduate skills of critical thinking?"

It's been noted in the past that one interesting thing about terrorists who have degrees is that they are almost always STEM, and even the Unabomber (Maths) is something of an outlier. The interesting thing in this case and the related cases at Exeter and St Andrews is that with one exception it's all non-STEM: law at Exeter, History at Warwick, English (and other things, it's slightly hard to tell, but it doesn't look like STEM) at St Andrews. The exception is the ringleader at St Andrews being Maths, but that case is slightly different to the other two: the motive seems more personal and there isn't (not that it makes it any better) the same air of wide-ranging misanthropy.

If you were doing a factor analysis, I'd put money on the dominating characteristics being "Privately educated" and "A Level History". Which is a PhD in itself.

These are all courses in which men are in a minority, so it's not that they are being somehow egged on by the overwhelmingly male environment they find themselves in. Most of them are conventionally good looking men, well-dressed, looking confidently into the camera, and they are in hugely female-dominated courses in hugely female-dominated universities (Warwick is slightly STEM-ier than Exeter and St Andrews, but they're none of them Herriot Watt, are they?) It's not like a rogues' gallery of Incels, fresh from basements, which is what makes them more terrifying.

Hideous people, and their psychopathy would be very interesting if anyone had the stomach to study it.

I’m kind of relieved I can’t afford to send either of my DS’ to uni, it sounds like an echo chamber of misogyny. I doubt there are as many working environments where these chats would be tolerated from employers. In my office they would have been sacked.

onsen

Thank you for the link to the article by the woman who went to school with the main offender. I think the quote below is a very important one.

Silent members of these chats; some of them my friends, some of them respected peers, some of whom I went to primary school with- their silence added to a culture of complicity.

Elie Wiesel said similar of the Nazis - and indeed any other "bullying" group - "To remain neutral is to side with the oppressor".

Allowing this sort of behaviour to go unchallenged, to ignore, or even attribute it to some sort of developmental stage in the adolescent male, is to encourage it and perpetuate it - and eventually it blossoms into something worse than mere words and "lads' banter", and becomes violent, predatory mysogynistic action.

The internet, with its easy access to violent and degrading pornographic material has a lot to answer for, I think.

I suppose this isn't the right place to mention Trump, but somehow, to my tiny mind, it all ties in with Covington MAGA boys and pussy-grabbing. What we used to call "Male Chauvinist Pigs" now seem to be the acceptable norm and it should not be so at all.

I was shocked by the number of male students defending the Warwick kids, there was genuine bewilderment that they should face any sanctions at all for everyday 'bantz'...

Doesn't surprise me. I was a mature student at one time and I joined TSR. It is a cesspit of misogyny, to the point that I stopped going on there because the drip-drip of hatred for women was so all pervasive.

TSR was where I first learnt about the cause of incels, from supporters' points of view. I think the forums are helping radicalise a generation of students into violent misogynists who think they are owed sex, tbh.

(I have worked with convicted terrorists who, when I met with them were lovely, charming people)

Apparently Hitler was, too, when it suited him, and Stalin. The chameleon qualities of people like this are what makes them dangerous. They inspire trust; they inspire liking; they inspire people to follow their lead. When they do do something dreadful, no-one believes their accusers, or wants to condemn them because " . . . he is such a lovely man. He'll do anything for anyone." They actively build themselves up a friendship base, and charm their way into people's confidence.

A huge proportion of rapists, paedophiles and murderers fit this description. It is a deliberate tactic.

May I ask (forgive my ignorance) what do STEM and TSR stand for?

Science, Technology, Engineering, Maths

The Student Room (chat forum)

TSR - The Student Room, a popular website for applicants and sometimes students.

STEM - Science Technology Engineering Maths (sometimes Medicine)

STEMM - All five of the above to cut out the ambiguity.

Thank you GCAcademic and ReflectentMonatomism

Elie Wiesel said similar of the Nazis - and indeed any other "bullying" group - "To remain neutral is to side with the oppressor".

Yes and that is why it is so important people don't stay quiet and listen.

I have bern told so many times as someone who is Jewish, that something isn't anti semetic when it blatently is, that if it wasn't so serious it would be laughable.

It starts with 'banter' where it ends up can be terrifying.

I think their punishment has been adequate. (A PP).

And I think their punishment should have been nothing less than rustication with no future possibility of re-registration. And in addition to this, police involvement. After all, if the police can spare the time to 'check the thinking' of UK citizens on an ideological basis, they can likewise check the thinking of those openly threatening to commit a disgusting, traumatic and invasive crime.

Hoping Warwick's 2019 applications will take careful note of this.

A huge proportion of rapists, paedophiles and murderers fit this description.

For example, John Warboys, to judge from the accounts.

In response to those LMAO'ing at posters who would discourage their children from attending the University of Warwick.

Warwick have longstanding form for enabling abuse, if that abuse is coming from the direction of one of their students. They will protect said abuser to the nth degree, and whoever happens to be on the receiving end can just suck it up. This applies equally to their staff, should they be so unfortunate as to be on the receiving end of similar crap from a student.

Case in point: sociology lecturer Prof. Robert Fine. His was the groundbreaking case - civil litigation sadly; not criminal - in which the word 'stalking' was first used in a UK court of law. He was stalked, harrassed (with a sexual undertone) and his life made hell by a female student over a period of years. And her behaviour was enabled by the stance of his employers, either in allowing her to get away with it, or not wanting to get involved when the thing escalated to the point of his endangerment.

Fine has written a book about his experiences: 'Being Stalked' I think it was called, in which he was openly and directly critical of his employers' lack of willingness to deal robustly with the problem, get off their backsides, and protect their staff.

His employers? The University of Warwick.

Warwick Uni have handled the situation incredibly badly.
The young women involved have been treated appallingly.

But, I don’t believe the vast majority of our young men think or behave like the men involved in this case.

I feel very sorry for the many outstanding students and academics at Warwick Uni who are as horrified as we are and are watching their reputations, degrees and University being dragged through the mire.

MarielVanArkleStinks - I hadn’t realised that about Robert Fine. More recently, feminist philosopher Rebecca Reilly-Cooper was in the Politcs department at Warwick and was harassed and threatened by a particularly nasty transactivist PhD student. I’m told she received no support from the management (the VC is actually a member of her academic department). She left academia not long after that.

It is what has gone on in Warwick that has shone a light on it, but to think it doesn't/isn't happening elsewhere would be extremely naive.

Of course it is going on elsewhere at Universities, schools, among some adult male-friendship groups and work colleagues and sports teams.

But here Warwick University had a chance to enforce life-changing consequences on the young men involved and send a strong message to the student body that such attitudes and behaviour would not be tolerated. By letting the boys back in, what does that say to all the female students and females in general?

When something like this is uncovered, why is it not a catalyst for change? The change that needs to begin in schools and be reflected back at young people by society and the right role models. The fact that any person refers to what they wrote as banter and not a criminal offense shows what disregard many people have for young females.