At my wits end with DD(10)

[Stcolumba]

First time poster with 3 DC (DD10, DS8 and DD 3) and loving DH.
For many years our DD10’s behaviour at home has been difficult to say the least. Her temper tantrums would melt an iceberg - full on screaming, swearing, slamming doors, lashing out. They probably happen about once a week but are getting increasingly severe. Her tantrums can be triggered by quite minor issues, but often are a reaction to having her phone confiscated for a more minor transgression.
Anyway, today was probably one of the worst days of my life. She got in a rage in the car while she was in the passenger seat with younger DC in backseats. She was whacking me while I was driving. I got really angry (I know, I know but please bear in mind this has been going on for years) and said I was driving to the local police station because she had assaulted me. Might sound a bit dramatic but I wanted her to understand how serious it was and utterly unacceptable. She went mental and pulled the steering wheel. Nothing happened and I managed to correct it but I was really shaken. My DS was hysterical thinking we all could have been killed. Anyway I pulled over and took her out the car so she could swap seats with DS as I didn’t feel safe with her sitting in the front. Her shoes fell off in the kerfuffle and she was literally standing at the side of the road screaming with no shoes on. Other DC hysterical too and me rapidly losing it.
I really don’t know what to do about her. We’ve tried the positive parenting approach, we’ve tried a lengthy lists of punishments. She just really does not give a shit about any of us. She behaves exactly the same way with DH. She constantly says that she wants to die because her life is so awful (in fact she’s got a v comfortable life). She has no close friends and no hobbies (another source of fights). We have really tried to help with those but she doesn’t want to do ANYTHING. Her behaviour at school and with other adults eg GPs is impeccable so no general behavioural issue. I think she needs some sort of anger management counselling but I honestly don’t know how I’d even get her through the door because she would go crazy if we suggested it. Our other DC are lovely, well behaved and well balanced young people but I worry about the impact this behaviour is having on them. Help!

You poor thing having to deal with that. It does sound like extreme behaviour for a 10 year old. Have you thought about getting her assessed for autism? She sounds exactly like my cousin was who has Aspergers. She was incredibly difficult at that age. Shen used to go and lie in the cemetery and say she wanted to die. Your daughter probably needs medication and some coping strategies.

Sounds a bit like my dd, she's autistic spectrum. The rage was so extreme I got as far as dialling the out of hours child protective services number, they arranged for us to take her to a&e for a child psych appointment (by which time she calmed down of course ). It's really hard, keep a diary of what happens, even film if possible, and then make a gp appointment - do state it's for mental health as some gp's have undergone additional training for this and we also get a double appointment slot.

I totally relate to everything you have said. My DD has been like this to varying degrees for years as well. She’s an angel at school, I get nothing but praise from her teachers, but she can be in the most foul mood with me before the car door has even closed when I pick her up from school. Unfortunately, I have no answers or suggestions for you - but I do want you to know that you are not alone with this. I have heard of very similar experiences from friends/friends of friends and it seems that this is usually a temporary (but long!) really bad period in their life which they do seem to grow out of. So like you, my family and I muddle through, dealing with the bad (appalling, often) behaviour as best we can. I try to be positive, kind and loving with her when I can, but sometimes we just have to tackle her behaviour head-on, which is emotionally draining and thoroughly depressing. Personally, I don’t think there is any other underlying problem except hormones; she once admitted that she doesnt know why she feels so angry so often. Our GP is willing to put her on a hormone pill to help with this, but my DD refuses to even see a GP. I believe she is like this with the people she is closest to - which is some consolation at me. Keep showing her you love her whenever you can and hang on until she comes out the other side of whatever dark place she is in. You are truly not alone. Xx

You say she has a nice life. Children who feel that way don’t go about wishing they would die.

That's not really fair @Yabbers My niece seriously attempted suicide (and survived with long lasting health issues) when she was 12, and there was no reason for her feeling that way. She was/is loved and has a lovely life. I think childhood and early teenage depression is often dismissed to readily. I wonder if puberty can cause depression similar to PND.

Op, my 11 year old is exactly like yours. She is being assessed for ADHD and ASD. But we've been under paeds for years and it's such a slow process because of funding cuts. We were supposed to have our long awaited diagnosis 6 months ago, but our paediatrician seems to have forgotten all about us and I've given up attempting to get in contact.

No friends and no hobbies sounds like my ASD daughter too, OP. She doesn't go into rages but she does wildly overreact to things (apologising profusely for no reason, worrying about disaster because she's done something wrong, etc) which is also a spectrum trait. It's worth looking into.

Autism and ADHD jump out at me. I have both and went through this stage.

Stcolumba Im so sorry you are going through this. Please don't take this wrong but I'm glad you have posted as I myself have more or less posted the exact same thing but under child mental health. My dd is 10 also and I feel like I am really struggling with her at the moment. I have put a lot down to tantrums but in all honesty she is not doing it to gain anything just simply can not manage emotionally. It's interesting to hear many say asd as currently she has a younger sibling on the pathway to being assessed for autism. However I feel with him he is so obvious with it. He doesn't manage school either and is struggling massively. If you ever need a sounding board feel free to message me we could probably both be doing with it!

Yes, ASD shouts out at me also. I have two ASD dds. Car scenario very familiar to me also. I understand how close to the edge it brings you. Do read the info linked here and visit your GP.

Ignore the silly comments about her phone.

I thought autism as soon as I read your post.

She constantly says that she wants to die because her life is so awful (in fact she’s got a v comfortable life)

Being clean, fed and loved does not automatically make a person happy. It is clear that DD is very uncomfortable in herself. Please don't dismiss her feelings.

Actually don't ignore phone comments. Regardless of any other issues she may have, I wouldn't let her have a phone at that age, and certainly not after 7.

And it wouldn't hurt at all to remove the phone for a week as consequence for her behaviour and let her know you will in advance. And absolutely be consistent and stick to it. That way, if she improves over the week you can rule things in and out.

OP for comparison from my childhood (diagnosed adhd and been told likely autistic) I once jumped out of a moving car over an argument with my mum over my phone, ran down the street stark naked due to an argument where my mum tried to drive away while I was in the shower and I wasn't happy to leave it, broke my hand punching a wall, forever getting into arguments with literally everyone. I also used to feel constantly suicidal.

It gets better I promise. I'm married with 3 kids and a professional job now. It won't always be this way although I know it feels like it will. Please take her for assessment, I got diagnosed as an older teenager and I wish I'd known earlier as medication (Concerta) made a huge difference

We’re looking into ADHD for our soon-to-be 10-yo DD and the lack of hobbies jumped out at me.
It’s not thAt DD doesn’t want to do anything, it’s more that she can’t stick to them.
She’s into manga drawing, hamsters, roller skating and so on but it has to be on her terms and when she chooses. If you try to pin her down, she flares up.

She’s very caring and empathetic but often masks this.

Hope you get some answers, OP.

Taking someone's phone won't help in this scenario. I've been this child and all it does is encourage the child to be sneaky. I got an old handset and used to switch simcards so I'd hand one in but take the sim out and use it in the spare. It'll just make her go behind your back.

I think the phone is a prop here, iyswim. It’s become the focus of a power struggle.

OP you have my sympathy. I don’t have anything useful to add but maybe ask at school what they suggest? Perhaps they have experienced similar and can point you in the right direction of someone who can help?
Lots of 10yo have phones. This is the new normal! I’m surprised at all those who are suggesting that this is too young. If monitored and used appropriately I don’t think ten is too young especially when walking home alone etc.

I also think ASD. The reason why she is lashing out is because she is probably suffering from anxiety. Punishments will not help.

💐🍷 I think this will probably all have come as a bit of a shock to you and it’s natural to be upset by it.

I agree with the vast majority of posters, you need to get help for her. SEN are often not spotted in girls until around this age. Once you know what you’re dealing with, you can find coping strategies for her.

She’s not doing it on purpose, she’s just using up all her coping ability at school etc & eventually loses it with people she feels loved and safe with.

If you can TRY to see it that way and try to find ways for her to cope with how overwhelmed she is, rather that seeing it as misbehaving and punishing her, you will all benefit. That goes for whatever the ‘minor misbehaviour’ was too.

Unfortunately it can be a long road to getting a diagnosis, so I’d start by posting on the SEN board here, they’ll help you with getting a diagnosis and with ways you can help her now. School may or may not be helpful, it depends on the staff. Some are fabulous, but many will say ‘There’s nothing wrong, she’s fine at school’ meaning they either don’t understand SEN or they don’t want the hassle.

There’s a LOT of twattery on your thread about phones, it has nothing to do with her phone. Taking it off her will not help, it will make things worse. Punishing her for things beyond her control will not help her.

DD seeing unwanted consequences of her behaviour will help. If you call that a punishment, so be it, but setting and reinforcing boundaries is always part of any successful therapy to treat antisocial behaviour.

If the car thing happens again (it might - people do fight in cars, not just autistic people) stop the car, get the other DCs out and get out yourself. Give DD 5 min in the car to calm down. She won't, at first, but it's important she calms at the site of the trigger. Ignore her, focus on the siblings, whose feelings at this point matter more. Bed early - she''ll be tired and no, repeat no, long agonised conversations with her. Simply explain her behaviour was dangerous and abusive and you'd like her to think about that.

Don't talk about your own feelings. Don't interfere with her relationships with her siblings as long as they're being ok to each other. Do they like her and get on with her?

I have had the exact same car journey as you OP, same aged children too.

We've been trying to get help for years, assumed it was PDA. It turns out she has severely slow processing speed (otherwise bright). We're still learning what that means and how to help but the diagnosis itself has helped her a lot (now she knows she's not stupid).

It's tough getting help though. You may well have to go on parenting courses (which we found helpful to a degree), push and push. We were finally successfully referred to CAMHS who assessed her cognitive ability by going to the school nurse. Our DD also impeccable at school.

Massive hugs, it's relentless.

I think the phone is a red herring no offence op but I think it's the fact she is getting angry when you take something off her or say no.

It's ok to say no. It's ok to say stop. It may be for a Dr to diagnose but we shouldn't jump to conclusions.

Don't feel judged when u are out and you tell your child no and they have a melt down. We are parents not their best friends by guiding and following through we can show them how to express themselves better. Keep going ask for counselling but know your child needs you to be strong and say no.

Don' know if this will be of much help to you OP but I have 11 year old twin girls and a younger boy and one of my DTs was like this pretty much from birth (it would come and go a bit). When she was about 9 it got so bad we had to seek help - smashed my car windscreen in with her foot (accident in a temper), lots of breaking things in the house and constantly saying how she hated her life. When she was having a calm moment - which would often happen after a particularly bad meltdown - I asked her whether she was scared and said that how cross she was was scaring me and did she want to talk to someone. She agreed. We took her to a private therapist who told us that she had low self-esteem and high anxiety. She continued to chat to this therapist for about a year (weekly at first and then reducing). She has been pretty much fine since, odd temper bout but much more controlled. I have changed my attitude to her lots, if she is in a temper I stay with her but I don't talk to her whilst she is overwhelmed, I try not to criticise her (ever), I don't put lots of demands on, I don't really use consequences other than natural ones or disappointment (even if she does something really serious like the windscreen - consequence was I was disappointed and we had to pull over and walk to school, she was far more upset with herself than she would have been at any consequence). The main change is that I like her now and see her as a scared anxious child rather than a demon who just couldn't be nice like her brother and sister. Getting older has also made it a bit easier as she is easy to rationalise with. Good luck.

@slapinthebass

That's exactly what I meant. It's not about whether those outside looking in think she has a nice life. It doesn't matter how loved or how "nice" a life looks, it is about that person's own perception of it. I'm not suggesting OP is responsible for how her daughter feels but whether it is depression or other neuro issue, or something happening externally, someone who wishes to die doesn't think they have a nice life. Something is happening in this girl's life, it can't be put down to poor parenting (or having a phone🙄)

FFS, I’m 30 and I had a bloody phone at 10, it’s perfectly normal and acceptable.

OP, I’m sorry, I have no advice because this is my life too, though it’s DS and he’s 11. He’s vile.

No, I don’t need parenting classes - I have 3 lovely kids. I don’t think you do either. Besides, if there’s any SEN/ASD they’ll be as useful as a chocolate teapot anyway because ‘normal’ parenting techniques rarely work.

I’d take her to the GP and ask for a CAMHS referral, and look up private counselling in the mean time if you can afford it.