Advice on colleague

[Mrsrockwell]

Namechanged for this... long post!

I have a colleague, let’s call her Judy, who has been at the place where I work for about 20 years. I joined 4 years ago.

She had a massive role, and was struggling to keep on top of all aspects of it, so a section of it was given to me a couple of years ago. Let’s say she runs 3 departments and I run 2. We have other areas which we run separately which don’t overlap.

The 5 departments should really run together with similar structures and aims. However, Judy has a totally different approach from me, and also extremely long-winded paper systems and refuses to change them. As one example, I’ve found a way of doing something electronically on my own in about 45 minutes that she likes to do with 4 others over 2 hours, using about 800 pieces of paper to cross-reference. When I suggested this method to her she said she preferred to do it the paper way and it had always worked fine for her. No problem - I’m not remotely bothered I just thought it would save her time.

Another example was asking her about how a particular system works which affects all 5 departments, because it seemed to me that there were quite a few loopholes. Again she said to me that it had always worked fine, no need to change anything. I didn’t press her on this but did find a way of streamlining it slightly.

I know she is really annoyed that I have this job as she didn’t want to give up any part of what she did. She basically told me this and how it was her favourite part of the job (I know it wasnt because she could choose what she wanted to give away). Anyway.

So my two areas are running really really well with a few new systems in place, and I’ve been pleased. Our boss (we share the same boss) has also been really pleased but has been asking me about how well I feel I communicate with Judy, and wondering how Judy could do a few things in a similar way to me. It’s not just the systems, it’s also what we spend our time on.

Judy categorically won’t budge on anything and is very slow to respond to requests for info or to share what her plans are until the last minute (if at all). This creates a lot of tension across some department leads.

Last week she was meant to turn up for a presentation but didn’t - she got caught up in something.

I have recently created some data across all 5 departments and shared this with department leads. Our boss has said that he thinks Judy feels a bit threatened because really she should be producing this kind of thing (but doesn’t). He’s been asking me what my ideas are to improve communication, and reiterating that I am not doing anything wrong, but my efficiency and work rate are very high and that this is possibly exposing Judy (he didn’t say this in exactly those words but this is what he meant).

Does anyone have any advice on what I could do? My instinct is to keep out of her way and to run things as best I can with my 2 departments because whenever I share ideas with her they are ignored or rejected. She shares nothing back. I could also slow down or not share across the 5 departments but it seems a bit churlish if I’m doing it for my own and it’s helpful to others. But I’m keen not to create a problem. Judy has been there many years, a lot of what she does is great and I really like her as a person. Am I doing something wrong do you think? If so what do I need to change?

The only thing you can do here is tell your boss that if he is unhappy, he needs to manage Judy properly not let you get caught up in it.

I guess as she has 3 depts and you only 2 that's a reason why you have the time produce the data

It's really your bosses issue to resolve, it's up to him if he wants her to change...

We have a similar load to be honest - I have an additional 2 departments in other unrelated areas and she has other responsibilities. It’s just the 5 departments which we share that are meant to run together really.

Boss sounds useless and unprofessional.
If he is unhappy with "Let's Call Her Judy" then he should do some managing and put standardised protocols into place rather than come bitching to you.

Your bosses comments explain how Judy has become so entrenched.

Best thing to do is to just ask your boss if you should do things your way or her way...but bear in mind she has been there longer than you and has longer experience running the department's at that workplace...also bear in mind your 45min timesaver of online or paper, may not be a timesaver if the internet signal goes down or a power cut or the computer doesn't work etc meaning the workplace can't access those items...where as in those instances her paper copies would mean the items could still be accessed on paper...

Boss wants me to do things my way but work out how to get Judy to either agree to streamline or presumably not feel annoyed? “Communication” seemed to be the theme but I feel that I communicate well, I just don’t get anything back.

Paper system in 45 mins is through google drive so it hangs in some virtual google cloud and is v unlikely to disappear. But I do take your point - paper does have a place.

Just feel I’m missing something and should be able to get things better. But as you say Judy has been there a really long time and has fixed ideas. She is very wise with many aspects of the role and I do get good advice from her. It’s not in any way me saying she’s no good or I can’t learn anything from her. We are very very different though.

I feel your pain. I've had my share of individuals with passive aggressive tendencies differing outlooks. I've also seen the situation where someone who insists on triple referenced handwritten systems in copperplate handwriting gets more resources because they moan they are too busy.

I've been recommended a book called 'Pig Wrestling' which I have just started to read. Apparently it is a quick read.

Anyway, it is a modern fable / parable dealing with precisely this type of issue. The very first advice it gives is for you to assess if a perceived problem is your responsibility or a priority for you. If it isn't either of these, then walk away and stick with your instinct to keep out of her way and run your own departments as best you can. PP have rightly said it is your manager's problem. It doesn't preclude trying to build some professional rapport without offering advice on her systems.

I do wonder though, if they are asking you to reflect on how you communicate with her, are they diplomatically suggesting that you may be a bit abrasive?

My first thought is that Judy may not had much basic IT training, e.g. Word, Excel, Powerpoint, OneNote etc, & so may not be aware or as nifty with these tools as she could be. She may have been too engaged or wrapped up the vast amount of paper-based work she has been doing for so verrrrrry long. You may not have had much training either BUT given the difference in length of service between you, I’ll take a punt that she has not been as mobile as you in the job market, & so may not either have been as focused on her career development or some other reason. Yes, she prolly does feel under threat as your teams are delivering without as much sweat, effort & aggro. I bet her team would love to be doing more ‘high value’ work than sweating the small stuff. Anyone mentions age & I’ll throw my dentures out my bath chair !!

So, that aside a moment.

Any issues about productivity, accuracy or attitude with Judy are for her line manager to resolve. Not you.

You like her? So be professional, friendly & approachable.
Yes, keep out of her way when it comes to doing her work.
Get on with doing your work well.
Be approachable so that people can ask for help.
Maybe be seen with Excel (other software packages available) manual open at your desk working out how to do something. If you have a shared drive or office notice board, ‘pin up’ 10 most useful tips or hacks for everyone to see - be seen to learn, to apply yourself, to share knowledge.

Offer to run a quick seminar on a productivity win for all e.g. mail merge data into emails. Quick & dirty - yr laptop & overhead projector at end of team meeting. Printed handouts with screen shots left lying around the office in abundance etc. Slap some spiel round how you got it off Google Excel tips, had a few practice runs ‘til you got it right & then used it to get xyz done quicker & accurately. Of course Judy will be there & can take in the message of change alongside everyone else, at her own pace.

If you go directly to her, at her desk, about something specific, she will resist. She has enough on her plate already by what you say.

Encourage/tell your mutual line manager to instigate a trading programme to refresh or develop core IT skills, with off site/non-office based training so that people can focus away from everyday office stuff, in an environment where they can learn with the fear of failing in front of their boss or peers. Yes, it costs money, but the improved efficiency and accuracy of routine work & the capacity for higher value work will pay in Cadbury’s buttons many packets over before Santa or the Easter Bunny call again.

So, to your question - do not change, keep up the good work.
Be an agent of change - for better across the teams.
Let water/Judy take her course.

Yes I do wonder if that could be what is diplomatically being said.

However, as soon as there is a (very rare this is) decision to be made which affects all 5 departments, Judy is like lightning on it, doesn’t want to involve me, and if she does ask, always ensures that her decision is the one that goes forward. I do feel that even though we are equals in terms of our status, that she feels she’s senior due to her length of service. And I do get that it would be annoying having someone suggest things when you’re happy with your own systems - which is why I’ve only done this really rarely.

I think it’s been sharing data with department leads which has annoyed her. I didn’t ask her first if she minded, but I had previously asked her about another set of data that I thought should be produced (and I think it needs to be done monthly in some detail with analysis - although I didn’t say this). She gave me a single sheet of paper with about 10 pieces of information and said that this is produced once every 3 months. This particular sheet can be produced in about 4 seconds and doesn’t give anything to work from. So I prefer to produce my own.

I will try that book! Thank you Beryl

This has the potential to cause a lot of shit. Whatever you do, tread cautiously!

Can you tactfully point out to your boss that as you and Judy are on the same level in the hierarchy, it might be better if he were to suggest Judy implement x,y,z? Maybe phrase it as ‘Judy is respectful of the hierarchy/your leadership, perhaps you could suggest that she implement this if you like what I have done? I wouldn’t want her to feel as though I am giving her instructions given her long service here at the firm’.

Short version is that your boss is shit. And if Judy is seen as the golden girl because of her long service, any changes you make or guidance you give her could turn around a bite you in the ass.

Universal - you’re so wise. Thank you. I will have a look.

Judy shares an office with her 3 departments. It’s very much her domain. I don’t share with my 2 (purposefully - Judy had advised me to share to check their work) but I do go over to my 2 departments a few times a day and they come to me. Communication within my departments is fine.

Returning
Boss is very very popular and kind and quite black and white with many things - very value-driven and fair and thoughtful. He is highly aware of how delicate it is managing Judy. She is not some old has-been who is lazy or bad at her job. But her approach causes a lot of problems and people do complain about her for this.

One of the people she used to line manage absolutely detested her and Judy warned me when I took over her department that this person was lazy, spiteful, useless etc. I’ve found her absolutely brilliant - organised, flexible, incredibly hard working and always willing to do extra. Not wanting to blow my own trumpet, because there are I’m sure plenty of people who don’t like me, but this person has said I’ve changed her entire life at work and she’s never felt so positive and happy at work. And I think that’s another thing which has probably got up Judy’s nose, because she was constantly complaining about this person. I can’t help that, but I feel like there’s something more I should be doing to improve the situation between us / our departments.

Boss said that perhaps the sharing of stuff should be more equal so it’s not so much one way. But I’ve never received anything from her except that one piece of paper with 10 pieces of info on it. There was no handover or anything. So I don’t know how I can make it more one way.

I mean less one way

I think it’s for your boss to resolve really, not you. Just keep doing your work as best you can and let him manage Judy.

I think universal pretty much covered it all.

The only additional thing I can think of regards your boss highlighting communication is you producing data/analysis for Judy’s areas without first informing her? Not 100% sure that’s what happened. I wouldn’t say you needed her permission but you should keep her informed and copied in.

But on a similar note anything that impacts or is related to your areas you should be kept informed and involved. From your post it sounds like that doesn’t always happens so this goes back to your boss actually managing both of you appropriately.

Unfortunately, I have been in a similar position. You have my sympathy!

Are you able to tell Boss that you have been thinking about this and would like his practical suggestions as to how best to overcome the communication issues? And would direct communication be best or should it go through him as the Boss? Perhaps then suggest that the three of you meet and discuss communication lines to ensure everyone is on the same page.

As I said, you have my sympathy, good luck!

Yes absolutely. I did copy her in but didn’t involve her beforehand. Probably because I expected she would say that it wasn’t needed or that she does it a different way (not at all) for her departments.

But I think moving forward I will always speak to her in advance and then if she insists she doesn’t want it then I will just exclude her departments from it and let our boss know that Judy preferred to stick to her own system for that, without elaborating.

I think you just have to ask your boss for ideas.

As for Judy I would approach it openly and honestly. Can you schedule a weekly catch up for you both? Meet her where she likbnppes to meet best - office or over coffee etc. don’t just make the catch up about work try to bond with her too.

Don’t take this the wrong way but all of your posts focus on on what Judy does wrong. From your bosses comments I would infer he thinks you are a little tactless and maybe ride over people whereas the culture of your office seems more respectful and open. Could you try doing things Judy’s way more? As a bonding thing in some areas. Pick a few thongs that are important to you to do your own way but give on some of the less important stuff to get her on side more.

But really it’s a crap situation and there’s not much you can do.

Returning - Boss did say to talk to her. I’m happy to do that but she tends to block immediately any suggestion made. It’s so delicate because our usual communication is positive and jokey (I know it doesn’t sound it) probably because we avoid the things which are apparently problematic - which she poo poos as not how she wants to do things.

She’s quite territorial.

She does absolutely love our boss and gets quite giggly (not flirty) - but she does quite idolise him and thinks he’s amazing.

It's your bosses job to manage Judy not yours

I would just continue with what you're doing now, keep trying to improve things and share with your boss what works. If he wants Judy to implement the same procedures as you he needs to tell her.

Redsky I think I do need to be more mindful about other people’s feelings - I’m very keen not to hurt others but I can’t live with huge systems that don’t work well. Nearly all the basis of what I do has been built on what Judy has created as a starting point. I do worry that I am overriding others in my desire to get things better. But she doesn’t necessarily know about what I do or have changed within my area because we are quite separate and she’s always in a huge hurry / massively busy and can’t stop and talk.

She does loads of things really really well. She has normally excellent judgement. She can be really thoughtful and listens really well to problems about things (just not procedures or how things have always been done). She has a methodical approach to things and doesn’t get flustered or lose her cool. There’s a lot that I really like about her.

tattttoo I think you’re right.

I’m so glad I started this thread. You’ve all been so helpful and wise

You could try having a bit of empathy, look st it from her perspective. I’m msking assumptons of course but perhaps it seems to her that as system she established, long before google drive existed, was the best solution at the time. It works for her. Someone younger, more technically adept, with new ideas coned along, is given part of her responsibilities. She’s possibly feeling really vulnerable and unappreciated. Me, I’d be diplomatic

I can see your bosses point that if you two can communicate you can probably learn a lot from each other.
Judy needs to do this too though.
I would probably suggest regular catch ups - invite your boss if you think needed. Try and focus on what you can learn from each other