That our government had a clear form of democracy as basis for actions

[Hawkinspace]

Some people see asking for a Final Say on the Brexit deal as undemocratic. We've voted, they reason, therefore we must leave. The way the whole matter has been managed, since the first decision to hold a referendum onwards, has made me question our idea of democracy. The word is freely used but seems empty of the rigour that could be applied here. I thought of a phrase instead, functional democracy. We have a duty to ensure our democracy is in good working order. Googling, I found the phrase has been thought of before (unsurprisingly!) and is part of an elaborate hierarchy of stages. That's not what I 'm getting at though, but rather a simple principle that government needs to ensure the democracy is fit for purpose. On present showing it is not. Does this legitimise a Final Say?

Not a fucking clue what that bollocks is about. But No Deal looks good.

No deal looks good for Russia but not so much for the UK.
Parliament making decisions is how our democracy functions, they cannot make undemocratic decisions. They can make bad decisions, unpopular decisions or ones that are found to be unlawful but they are by their nature democratic decisions.

@freezinguplands
Interested in your view that a decision by our government is by its nature democratic. Is democracy really limited to decisions? Thinking of the 2016 referendum: It was poorly planned and has entailed consequences that are breaking our country apart. That's an example of a malfunctioning democracy imo. Surely those who decide must exercise due diligence?

@ginghambox
In what way does no deal look good?

Hawkinspace.

Yes it does for you because that's what you want.

I think that any legislation that passes through the Palace of Westminster has to be democratic, because that is how our democratic process works.
It would be possible for some votes, elections or referendums to be so flawed that they were invalid, the electoral commission comments on that.
The 2016 vote was highly flawed but it was only advisory, it it the MP's and Lords that have created law from it.
It would be equally democratic for the commons to either push on with leaving or to decide to have a second vote. In my view having another vote would be much smarter but it is no more or less democratic than not.
It may be treasonous to push ahead with something that you know will seriously damage the country, I do not know the definition of treason for sure.
There are significant challenges with holding refs in a political system structured like ours. Personally I think it is a disaster of an idea!

Country voted to leave, if MPs cant agree a deal then I am happy with no deal. Lets get on with it.

Seriously deluded to even think no deal is fine.
It's wilful ignorance

Let's not get on with wrecking the economy

Watch this (starts at minute 11):

m.youtube.com/watch?v=-PxpHNXIKnY

No Deal looking most likely. 38 working days to go.

We need to leave, put this whole sorry mess behind us and look to the future.

With no deal, that future will look fucking bleak.

We need to leave, put this whole sorry mess behind us and look to the future.

This is the bit I seriously don't get- that people think once we have left we will somehow be able to stop thinking about it, that all the arguing and decision-making will somehow come to an end. This is the bit where we have to strike individual trade deals with the rest of the world without the support of any allies. If you think the Brexit process was a sorry mess- you ain't seen nothing yet.

This is the bit I seriously don't get- that people think once we have left we will somehow be able to stop thinking about it, that all the arguing and decision-making will somehow come to an end.

exactly. If we leave then brexit is all we will hear about for years to come. Anyone who is bored of brexit - who wants it just to be done with - needs to start looking at ways they can help stop it. Otherwise trade deals/ red lines/ government paralysis/ parliamentary coups/ - while everything else grinds to a halt - is all we are going to hear about for years, maybe decades, to come.

No deal just means we start off this interminable slog from a position of weakness never before seen in a modern developed country (and you know - pesky things like food shortages, medication shortages, troops on the streets, businesses fleeing (brexiteer Dyson for one), sterling crashing and unemployment soaring - all factors mentioned in government reports, not project fear. Plus foreign business being able to sue the british govt because they invested here as we were in the EU and we reneged on that. Plus civil war reigniting in NI.). Not really a good position to be trying to get trade deals from. The NHS will not survive any deal with the U.S (nor will our food safety standards) but i shudder to think just what a bonfire they will make of it if we are so terminally weakened when we are attempting to negotiate.

Yeah ... I can really see why no deal 'looks good' - to people who hate the U.K.

Brexit will never be over if we leave.

Brexit is only over if we don't leave.

Irony klaxon.

If we leave on no deal terms there won't be much of a future for many. But let's look forward to that.

The first reply on this thread is literally someone saying, I have no idea what you are talking about but the incredibly complex implications of no deal I fully comprehend and understand and therefore have formed the opinion that this is great.

Which says far far too much about the entire subject and level of understanding there is about an incredibly complex process.

Indeed you could support leaving and still think that calls for no deal and 'let's just get on with it' are spectular in their naivety. It's not a remain / leave position to think that how the entire situation is being managed is an utter car crash which endangers all our futures.

Its just not that simple nor easy. An exit without proper preparation will be a shock event with huge consequences because of the sheer scale and magnitude of what will be required to crisis manage the situation.

I wish I could say differ. As it stands it looks like it will be no deal, and we'll find out the hard way. I hope I'm wrong.

Brexit is only over if we don't leave

Brexit will never be over if we are forced to stay. The 52% will keep fighting until we are free. If remainers dont give a crap about democracy then leavers will likewise give up on democracy and lets see where that leaves us.

The only way to bring our country back together again is after we have implemented the result of the referendum.

Free from what exactly?

You are just swapping one set for another. You can't opt out of them. What do people think WTO rules are?

If you want total sovereignity then you dont have trade deals. Any at all.

And democracy isn't a single event. It's an ongoing process which is ever changing. It's the relationship between the press, the law and the executive. And holding imbalances of power to account. This is breaking down because of a failure to be honest about what Brexit is and what it will mean in practice.

The lack of understanding of the concepts of any of this is staggering.

And MPs are amongst the worst offenders of it too.

Fighting for freedom from reality is like punching yourself in the face to prove a point.

Brexit is going 'well I don't like that' without proper thought to what the alternative is. It does not matter. All that matters is you don't like that. What if the alternative is even worse.

Just today we've had an MP go, "well if WTO rules don't work for us, we can just break them cos the WTO won't hear the case for 18 months. As if the judgement of the WTO would be the only consequence of going full on rogue state.

They are saying this cos the idea of going to WTO doesn't work. The idea that it will be better than the restrictions of the EU is limitlessly funny.

Red, remainers have never accepted the result of the vote and have worked for 2 years to sabotage leaving. All your (nothing personal) ranting and raving is just background noise and leavers just ignore it now.

MPs have had their time to agree a deal, time is almost up. Get ready to leave.

How can you sabotage a plan that never existed in the first place?

Just y'know asking?

Farage and Johnson BOTH said we should go for a Norway option and campaigned on that . Personally I could live with that and could accept that.

Then in October 2016 May decided to change the goal posts and said that no that wasn't OK. She started no deal was better than a bad deal. And then Johnson and Farage jumped on the bang wagon about it and suddenly we are talking about WTO terms.

That's nothing to do with Remainers not accepting the result. That's everything to do with political shifting of the goal posts to suit those individuals rather than delivering what anyone wanted.

Yes it might be what some leavers wanted, but certainly not all.

And to blame it on Remainers is just part of the political blame shift.

It's bullshit and its just another meaningless zombie slogan that people are repeating without thinking or remembering what actually happened because they have no regard for reality.

And what is profoundly democratic is to point out the abuse of power by the likes of May and Johnson in this whole sorry saga.

But hell, trying to hold power to account, is 'just noise' these days. I do very much get it.

When thinking about leaving, I do find it mad how no one spares that thought as to where we are going to.

It's a blind leap of faith hoping that you'll land on your two feet rather than plummet headlong into man eating crocodiles.

Yes I think it's OK and perfectly reasonable to say, 'errr can we check what's outside first and plan our route, first'.

That does not mean we don't step outside. Just that we don't metaphorically or otherwise shoot ourselves in the foot.

I do find it mad how no one spares that thought as to where we are going to.

As long as we are going away from the control of the EU then we are going in the right direction. The destination we can worry about later.

Leavers will have no truck with project fear anymore, been there done that and not revisiting. But feel free to keep on selling your snake oil juice if it makes you feel better, only remainers are buying.

As long as we are going away from the control of the EU then we are going in the right direction. The destination we can worry about later.

I pray you are right. I fear that you are not.

Mainly because of the complexity of Brexit and the incompetence of government on a multitude of other issues.

I will not be silenced in making the point. Or except I am just noise. That's just a silencing tactic by someone who doesn't want to hear things they don't like. It is my democratic right to do so and my democratic right to challenge any political agenda that the government pursues. If we do not have freedom to do this we do not have freedom, so what the point of being out of the EU anyway?

The idea that is undemocratic to voice a political opinion is what you have stated. And that's just bullshit.

LOL.

'No Deal' = 'Yes Chaos'

Leaving without any sort of serious negotiation in place means

Years of chaos while those deals are negotiated.

So, it's more Brexit - just with no food.

'Let's just get on with it' = 'Let's go for 10 more years of Brexit morning, noon and night - but starving, without medicine, the NHS, and with run-down schools, while Brexit still dominates everything: news, policy, government.'

No thank you.

You may love all that kind of thing but I have a life I want to get on with and people I live.

I'm totally fed up. Leave the angry chaos merchants to find s new hobby-horse to get all red-faced and furious about.

Drop Brexit and let's start living again.