That our government had a clear form of democracy as basis for actions

[Hawkinspace]

Some people see asking for a Final Say on the Brexit deal as undemocratic. We've voted, they reason, therefore we must leave. The way the whole matter has been managed, since the first decision to hold a referendum onwards, has made me question our idea of democracy. The word is freely used but seems empty of the rigour that could be applied here. I thought of a phrase instead, functional democracy. We have a duty to ensure our democracy is in good working order. Googling, I found the phrase has been thought of before (unsurprisingly!) and is part of an elaborate hierarchy of stages. That's not what I 'm getting at though, but rather a simple principle that government needs to ensure the democracy is fit for purpose. On present showing it is not. Does this legitimise a Final Say?

I pray you are right. I fear that you are not
I am not religious so no praying involved. Would rather be free at almost any cost than live in a country controlled by an ever more controlling undemocratic EU. As would a lot of leavers.

No one is trying to silence you Red, doesn't mean many people are listening to you.

Just pointing out that forcing a majority of voters to stay in an EU against their decision will not be the end of Brexit. And it will not unite the UK. The genie is out of the bottle, its independence or bust.

I'm not seeing any ways to reunite the country and making the 48% who didn't want this poorer certainly isn't going to.
I think we may well up with both freedom and bust. ( at least Dyson has decided to future proof his headquarters by leaving UK)
It also seems likely that Scotland and perhaps NI may seek their own freedom.

I like your posts, RT-Brush.

Even Dominic Cummings says the Referendum came down to the question "Do you like the Status Quo?"

Nothing to do with 'free', democracy, rules or Norway. Sigh. You can throw in 'control', though, if you like. We're all slaves to bigger forces.

No one yet on these threads has been able to say what “being under the control of the EU” means or why, if we are under some form of “control”, it’s a bad thing.
So, what does the EU “control”? And as we are (still) actually part of the EU, with a great deal of influence and the ability to veto a number of things we don’t want, in what way haven’t we been part of that control?
I found this a helpful, factual and unbiased read.
fullfact.org/europe/british-influence-eu-council-ministers/

Forgot the link to the EU voting calculator:
www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/voting-calculator/

The people advocating for no deal are utterly utterly selfish, and pretty ignorant.

live in a country controlled by an ever more controlling undemocratic EU

Simply not true. The EU is completely democratic. Many countries have to agree things, and Britain might not always get its way (however this is rare), but the same also goes for the other member states.

The owners of the “newspapers” that have for years propulgated the lies about the EU which have lead us to where we are today, are extremely rich, often don’t live in the UK, and may stand to gain from the coming disaster if we crash out with no deal. As do many of the right wing Brexiteers. There is nothing altruistic about what they are doing. For them Brexit is about avoiding increasing scrutiny on murky tax dealings, and if they can make a mint betting on the upcoming damage, then that’s a bonus as far as they are concerned. As David Lammy says, don’t listen to what the Brexiteers say, watch what they do. Which is mostly move their money offshore.

Leavers will have no truck with project fear anymore, been there done that and not revisiting

What an utterly ridiculous statement - you haven't been there at all, but we may be about to and it looks like a hideous place to be. Did anyone see C4 news last night? Pretty depressing to say the least.

Why do people fear what the 52% will do if we don't leave? What about the 48% whose lives and those of their children look like being utterly fucked because of lies, incompetence and wilful stupidity? I am livid and feel no connection with this country anymore (I am British). I can't bear to think of some stupid fucking blue passport (made in France) being rolled out with an attempt at fanfare. I won't want one. And that's just one of the trivial examples of what's ahead.

Does no one worry about the impact on social cohesion of a no deal Brexit? Certainly not all leavers, including those who haven't changed their minds in principle, voted for that, so why on earth does it look like being visited on us?

We have an unwritten constitution. The role of referenda has never really been defined. Indeed in theory the Queen could refuse Royal Assent to laws.

A vote on whatever deal there becomes, or to have no deal, or see sense and remain, is not unconstitutional, just unprecedented.

The mess only starts when we leave.

I am also not religious but Leave is an article of faith and invoking God is one of the last things left for anyone very concerned about the blindness of where we now find ourselves.

The leave vote is held together by nothing more than hope. Its fabric is a vote against something. It has no substance when you examine what people voted for.

Indeed this was deliberately left out, by the campaign, who preferred voters to form an individual version of what people assumed Brexit to be. 17 million versions of Brexit, many of which were in direct conflict with each other, and would always leave huge numbers disillusioned at some point about what the outcome would be, simply because the fantasy is impossible to achieve. It was deliberately constructed to be an idea woven from individual priorities and imaginations rather than a properly considered proposal which could be deconstructed and critique by an impartial third party.

Who can critique someone's individual dream as its held in their head? Its so deeply personal and embedded into their personality, that any criticism of Brexit literally is a criticism of that person. And we see that reflected in the responses that people give to concerns about the wisdom of Brexit. It what makes Brexit genuis but also so dangerous.

It's not that I don't understand this. I understand it too well. The best I can do is to call it, and hope that maybe just a few people are honest with themselves even if they are not honest with anyone here.

The One True Brexit is a myth. It's a psychological manipulation of your hope and fears wrapped up into one nice shiny gift wrapped present. Yet it will leave those who open it disappointed.

We might leave the influence of the EU. But we will then come under the influence of other powers and forces which we do not match and will find out the reality of global politics. We will not be making the rules.

And so yes I will turn to praying I'm wrong, because it seems the right and only logical thing to do at this junction.

The runaway train will stop eventually. I hope its not in a spectacular crash.

Yes they cry 'I know what I voted for'. And they are telling the truth. The trouble is what they voted for is an individual dream, not a collective or cohesive plan. And therein lies the heart of the issue.

Genuine question, how would leavers feel if the government asked for an extension to the Art 50 timescale, to give the country more time to organise and plan our departure from the EU ? Would this be seen as sabotage or sensible ?

And arrrgggh, the "52%" will not keep fighting to leave on no deal. I voted leave. I anticipated Norway model. I did not anticipate this cluster fuck. No one can say what exactly all leavers voted for because it was a range of models.

Falcon you voted with reason and logic and with a plan in mind.

This is my point.

Note the difference with the no dealers.

There is a definite pattern. No dealers can't identify a plan and finish point just an ideal.

Hi Red. Thank you.although I personally deeply regret my part in opening this Pandora box. It's actually people who want no deal.claiming it's what all the 52% voted for that is such a blatant rewrite of recent history that annoys me.

Falcon it's all a rewriting of history and it's one of the most concerning things about the whole thing.

I never bought into some of the faulty remain narrative or demonisation of leave voters.

I think it needs to be recognised in its own right.

The psychology of Brexit is what's so scary. It's what is ultimately preventing any sensible approach from this point - be it to either leave or remain.

@corythatwas

"This is the bit I seriously don't get- that people think once we have left we will somehow be able to stop thinking about it, that all the arguing and decision-making will somehow come to an end. This is the bit where we have to strike individual trade deals with the rest of the world without the support of any allies. If you think the Brexit process was a sorry mess- you ain't seen nothing yet."
Neat if depressing summary of the real-world situation. We are teetering on the brink of chaos and people are still swallowing the lies and minimising the brexiters are still putting out. The trend though imo is now towards granting a PV and extending A50. Common sense can break out at any moment if we're lucky.

OP you are asking some good questions about democracy. Some of us have been banging on about the democratic deficit in this country for a long time.

Democracy is not one thing, it is not about simple majority rule. The trouble is people think political science is boring they are not interested and won't engage. One of the reasons we are in this mess is that people feel disenfranchised but won't listen to the boring reasons this is the case and then engage long enough to make a change.

In terms of Brexit our MPs are elected to do the best thing for the country, they are not delegates who have to do what their constituents tell them, they are not supposed to put the needs of their party or their career first.

They have to look after the interests of the country above everything else.

And this is a case in point "controlling undemocratic EU".

This is not true. The EU is democratic.

However, the lie has been repeated so often it is said with total authority as if it were true.

No one is prepared to listen and engage with the details and political science. Looking at structures and separated powers is boring.

It's so much easier to shout slogans.

I think we have a fucking pantomime democracy at the moment.

Any working democracy relies on an informed voting population. But the language of politics is subverted and is founded on lies, emotion, brinkmanship, soundbites, entertainment.

The "oh yes he is", "oh no he isn't", "she's behind you" politics written to distract and evoke leave no room for information and trust.

It's a farce.

Good post, op, interesting topic and thoughts.

We've had a pantomime democracy for a long time. We have the politicians we deserve.

If people refuse to listen, ask questions, read and engage this is what you get. If people respond to headlines and sound bites and make voting decisions based on lies this is what you get.

The message of New Labour is that spin works. The Tories did it for years and Labour lost again and again as the tried to deliver 'honest' arguments - "yes we will increase your taxes'.

The message don't be honest, twist and spin, use the system no one reads enough or cares enough. That is how you get power.

The expenses scandal was due in part to the fact we couldn't have an honest public discussion about MPs pay, so expenses took the strain. Then people are horrified by what was an open secret.

I'm aware that the problem goes back decades mouse but I don't think it's fair to say it is the fault of the electorate.

We voted for 'em.