That our government had a clear form of democracy as basis for actions

[Hawkinspace]

Some people see asking for a Final Say on the Brexit deal as undemocratic. We've voted, they reason, therefore we must leave. The way the whole matter has been managed, since the first decision to hold a referendum onwards, has made me question our idea of democracy. The word is freely used but seems empty of the rigour that could be applied here. I thought of a phrase instead, functional democracy. We have a duty to ensure our democracy is in good working order. Googling, I found the phrase has been thought of before (unsurprisingly!) and is part of an elaborate hierarchy of stages. That's not what I 'm getting at though, but rather a simple principle that government needs to ensure the democracy is fit for purpose. On present showing it is not. Does this legitimise a Final Say?

Of course its in part the fault of the electorate.

They got upset and threatened to change their vote at the first sign of a difficult decision.

Issues relating to house building and pensions have been the two big pebbles kicked down the road precisely because of the electorate's adversion to them.

People want politics to be simple and to be like celeb culture. Instead its boring and dull. The hiding to nothing the public has given politicians has also led to a real decline in the quality of people standing for election. This is in addition to those people who do stand, being more willing to game the system or suck up to the right people purely to get a seat rather than being they have real merit as a candidate.

I don't think it is that simple. I think that no matter how you engage with politics, it's hard to navigate around all the bullshit and waffle to get to a straight answer. What was the last time that you got a reply from an MP that wasn't an exercise in cut and paste, that answered the question that was asked, that wasn't an exercise in filling a page with words without saying anything at all?

"Brexit will never be over if we are forced to stay. The 52% will keep fighting until we are free."

Which freedoms does the EU stop UK citizens from having? This hyperbolic language of oppression is ridiculius. As is stating that the EU is anti democratic. Simplistic clap trap peddled by people without a genuine argument.

"remainers have never accepted the result of the vote and have worked for 2 years to sabotage leaving."

Give one example of how remainers have sabotaged leaving? You can't because its never happened.

This shit show is on leavers like you.

The referendum was non binding - voters said what they would prefer

Democratically we then vote for our MPs who are suppose to act in the best interests of their constituents

Which freedoms does the EU stop UK citizens from having? This hyperbolic language of oppression is ridiculius. As is stating that the EU is anti democratic. Simplistic clap trap peddled by people without a genuine argument

People believe and buy into "simplistic claptrap" they like it, they want it, they vote for it.

'Stuff' that is demonstrably untrue is repeated again and again and called fact. How is this not the fault of the electorate?

Politicians play to the audience. No one wants to listen to complex situations with long term solutions. Politicians give the answers most people want.

The U.K. today has significant problems, deprived areas, housing, poverty. Leavers come on these threads and tell us about the problems they face, they are in pain and miserable. But they don't want to hear the boring gradual solution they want to Brexit because that will make it all right. Overnight.

I'm not a leaver. I just want to know how confident that you would be of receiving a genuine, informed reply from your MP, on any issue?

The public voted to Leave.
I find the arrogance of MP's trying to thwart Brexit unbelievable.

I don't think I would receive a genuine, informed reply. I think those days are long gone.

50 years ago politicians went to town hall meetings with no list of prepared questions. They stood up in the hall and answered the questions asked. They gave speeches people had to,listen to and focus on.

People won't go to meetings like that, they won't listen to speeches. People want short sharp answers with a bit of a zing to them.

It people won't turn up and listen who is at fault, the politicians or the people?

The only point I was making is that the pre-conditions for democracy are utterly eroded, have been for some time and that this shit show was inevitable. I think the political class and the media should be held accountable for the complete lack of trust capital among the general population and those who govern.

People won't go to meetings like that, they won't listen to speeches.

I think they would. I think they would, now.

The public voted to Leave
I find the arrogance of MP's trying to thwart Brexit unbelievable

And a leaver proves my point.

How many times has it been stated it was an advisory referendum? Our MPs are not delegates they act on what they, as individuals, believe is best for the country.

The above statement shows a basic lack of understanding of the British constitution and the U.K. parliamentary system. How can democracy function effectively when people do not understand the basic rules of how it is run?

Parliamentarians are finally acting to address this issue and they are dismissed as "arrogant" for doing their job.

I would add that there would be even less trust in the political system if Brexit is stopped.

"We will implement whatever you decide."

What would you suggest Mousse?
Abandon universal suffrage and maybe have an IQ test for the entire population?

Would you blindly follow demorcecy if the people voted to do say? Kill of religious monority groups? Force sterlizations ?

Where do you draw the line? when do you step in and say no we should not do any of those thing EVEN if it is THE WILL of the people?

We are not in a total democery because if we were and people voted for force murder / sterlizitions of large swaths of people and we did not stop it we would be the new age Nazi Germany.

Look how the press has managed to dehumanize disabled people just think of the power they could weild if they contiune down this line and the general public is stupid they find deep discussions "boring" and if it does not directly effect them most give zero fucks.

If the press says the same lie enough times people start to think it is true (the EU is Democratic if you actually fucking look at it) The main power is in two branchs the parliment which is voted dircetly by the people (do idiots forget about EU elections) and the second are directly assigned by government minsters from MEMBER nations.

It is not a club with a few select rich people controlling everything in fact it is MORE democratic then out own government, but the papers twist it with lies to make it out its undemocratic if the UK does not get its way (aka it gets OUT voted by the MAJORITY) and they start screaming they are not elected ignoring the fact that they are ethier directly via the European paralminet elections (the one were that competle bastard of a man Nick farage was in office consetly) or second branch which is made up by appointees from member state governments. (Better then our own house of lords for gods sake).

But hey if you are too stupid to look deeper then the slogans of the gutter press maketh your bed and so thy should lay in it (thank god i am dual UK- Irish Nationaity and i can apply for American citizenship through marraige so quite happy to watch the UK sink.

The UK is the laughing stock of the world and the counrties that are encourging us to jump are the lions that will pounce and take advantage of our weaken position and tanking economy. Be prepared for really shitty exchange rates so everything we inport will be much more expesive and what little we export will be worth so much less.

"We will implement whatever you decide."

Which wasn't a binding promise, Cameron said he would stay on and declare article 50 immediately, he didn't.

Things change, the law about the referendum being advisory isn't one of them,

I would suggest lots of things in relation to the British constitution- we haven't got the time.

In the short term I would hope the public could try to understand.

The referendum was advisory. If it had been binding then it would have been declared void due to electoral irregularities.
How democratic is it to act on the result of a non binding, illegal referendum?

Our MPs are not delegates. You vote for an individual not a party and then that individual makes a decision based on what their conscience tells them is best for the country. This isn't arrogant it is what they promise to do when they take their oath.

I support universal suffrage but with rights come responsibilities, you have the right to vote and the responsibility to educate yourself.

It'll never go away.
Government appeased eurosceptics which were a minority. Most people didn't even think about the EU until the referendum.

Any government going forward will have a much larger group of brexit-sceptics going forward who are generally better informed.

Including a much better informed public who will be watching their every move.

The only good thing I can see about Brexit is the government can long shift blame and play pass the responsibility parcel.

But hey ho, the young who are able will leave. And we will be an ever ageing population without the means to cover pensions as the Daily Mail, the Express etc scape goated immigrants.

And given the closeness of the result and the absolutely zero attempt of this government to do what they should have done first and be conciliatory (God, May is crap), you will have a population seething with resentment for years/decades to come.

I agree with everything that you said, right up to here you have the right to vote and the responsibility to educate yourself.

I cannot see how anyone could be capable of unraveling fact, opinion, expert opinion, myth, theory, promise, hope, lies, propaganda and pure manipulation in the face of such marked duplicity of those engaged in the conversation.

The politicians are being duplicitous but they aren't hiding it well.

That leaver post being posted today on several threads - full of lies and nonsense. Easily proved to be a joke.

But someone posted it because they took it entirely at face value. Who's fault is that? Can you blame the politicians for that?

Disclaimer.
(I'm being much more cynical than usual today because I feel ill and am off work sick)

That's ok mouse, I'm big enough and ugly enough to handle it

But someone posted it because they took it entirely at face value. Who's fault is that? Can you blame the politicians for that?

No, not for that particular act. I do think that that kind of mis-politicking (made up word) makes sense though when the currency of political language is reduced to spectacle and emotion. And I blame them for that.

The people advocating for no deal are utterly utterly selfish, and pretty ignorant.

And THIS sums up the oh so superior attitude of most of Remain
Nothing but put downs and insults towards Leave . Hell, some are even happy when an "old leave voter" DIES for chrissake !!

To me those whom used the EU and its citizens here as CHEAP labour are selfish and pretty ignorant !

For those interested in the number of UK Rules influenced by EU rules have a look at this: threadreaderapp.com/thread/1087360379691380736.html

Underlying this is the problem that 100 years ago, education was tied to the concept of self improvement and creating opportunities. The history membership of political parties really reflected this desire to be engaged with problems and to understand the nature of them.

In 1953 the Conservative Party had a reported membership of 2.8 million; in the same year, Labour claimed over a million members. [source - commons research briefing]

Today its more like 100,000 for the Conservative Party and somewhere between 385,000 and 500,000 for the Labour Party (officially its the later, but there are strong rumours its more like the former).

The knock on effects from this are significant.

Elfinablender you are making a damm fine job of arguing your point unfortunately leavers keep popping up to prove my point.

To me those whom used the EU and its citizens here as CHEAP labour are selfish and pretty ignorant

I have no idea what this means and what point is being made.