AIBU to ask if school can go through my son's phone?

[ejk10]

This hasn't happened to my son yet -but he thinks it might, and happened to some of his friends today.

Apparently a child has made a statement which the school is investigating (none of the boys have been told what the complaint is) and a teacher demanded to look through this boy's phone and deleted some information. My son has not been questioned but is friends with those who have been and is wondering if the school would ask to look at his phone.

I'm not sure of the legalities of this. Part of me thinks if he has nothing wrong why worry if they look - another part of me thinks it is a huge invasion of privacy. My son assures me he has done nothing wrong - regardless of whether he has or not I'm questioning if they have the right to look through private data.

Can anyone shed any light?

streetwise

Children should not be expected to deal with the responsibility of technology without the grown ups around them being involved. It’s the equivalent of leaving a child alone in an adult space (a pub? A nightclub? A boxing ring? A porn studio?) and expecting them to just “be ok”. Expecting them to know when something isn’t right and seek help before any damage is done.

“ Because if the pupil had nothing to hide, why not demonstrate that?”

The child/parents in question might choose demonstrate that, but only once they have the information required to make that decision.

Kids should not agree to unlock their phones without parental or police involvement. It’s a safeguarding issue.

Gracious, far from overstepping the mark, if that had been my child I’d have offered to go into school to do the deleting for them to save them wasting time. Then the phone would be placed in a bucket of water. If they wanted a phone they’d have to start saving to buy one. Inappropriate use of internet and media means they’re not mature enough to be allowed unsupervised access.
I don't disagree and this incident led to us changing the rules about phones and social media at home. I don't feel DS was in a position to consent to his whole camera roll being deleted, he consented because he wanted to cooperate with the teacher. As parents we ve given him the message that his actions led this to happen. In my opinion it would have been appropriate to involve us as parents in the intervention to support the school in the process as well as my DS. I understand that teachers are busy and that action needs to be taken promptly but they had held onto his phone all day before calling him back in at the end of the day when they then asked him to open the phone

@Cauliflowersqueeze

The piece I have selected is the piece that relates to search of "electrictronic devices" the rest of the document is not relevant to electronics devices.

The provision you have referenced around disruption of teaching relates only to the examination and deletion of files, to be able to do this a search of the phone needs to be permissible in the first instance.

I'm not sure whether you're being deliberate disingenuous here but if you're a teacher you need to re read that document properly.

Perhaps start by asking yourself "is it likely that a school teacher has more power of search in relation to a phone than a police officer?"

I'm hugely alarmed at how many people (teachers?) are on this thread saying that children should give up their rights without question.

We do not live in a police state. This idea that if you've done nothing wrong you should submit is nonsense.

Birdie, a lot of people feel only contempt for young people and enjoy submitting to authority.

They like subjugation.

Streetwise

That’s a sweeping statement. It’s certainly not how I feel about young people.

StreetwiseHercules
Call me old fashioned but I think if people give technology to students then they have a responsibility to use it correctly.
If a parent isn't going to hold their child responsible for their phone and safe technology use nd support school in doing then perhaps they shouldn't be giving such equipment to their child. After all, if they're too young and little to be responsible then they probably shouldn't have it.

I think the right of a child to go to school and be free from bullying and online nastiness is more important than the right of a peer to hide their unpleasant behaviour under the guise of 'but it's my right i'm not showing you anything'.

I do wonder how many people on This thread have dealt with teens involved in sexting incidents and the aftermath of things being shared. I wonder how happy they'd be if the school told them 'sorry we aren't going to do anything about the images being circulated because although our investigations have indicated it's going on, those sharing the images have more rights than the victim'.

With rights come responsibilities. When people start pushing the agenda of 'my child has all these rights but little in the way of responsibility for their conduct', that's how school time gets taken up.

Birdie, a lot of people feel only contempt for young people and enjoy submitting to authority.
They like subjugation.
Or we believe in rights and responsibilities.

But it's a MN school thread so the emotive language and rally call is almost expected. E.g. blind conformity, draconian rules, teachers think they're gods, staff love yo bully students and love misusing authority, tell students to refuse anything they don't like... the usual.

Meanwhile in the real world, phone related searches aren't common and are done in line with the law and only when there is a serious reason to.

I still think it's hilarious that the first response from some people to a teen saying they think they might get asked for a phone search is to be anti school rather than suspend judgement for a second and wonder what a student might have on their phone or have been involved in to be at the point where they may be asked.

If is in regards to safeguarding school CNA ask to look through the phoenix happen to us when I worked at a school and a girl acscused another student of forcing into sexual activity

Not all teachers are trustworthy and not all have good judgement. From my high school days it was about 50% decent and 50% morons/bullies.

In such serious matters I wouldnt be leaving it to chance. Asked to unlock a phone by a teacher I will be telling my kids to say “no, phone my dad.”

streetwise
Your average classroom teacher or even middle leader has nothing to do with a phone search.Most schools (rightly) have it as designated people who do searches.

E.g. Even though i was a middle leader, when I had reason to suspect a student had something they shouldn't (and was against the law for them to have), it was passed to a senior member of staff to do a bag search with me present as a witness.

For a situation to get to a point where a school would seriously be bothered to do a phone search then there's an actual issue. Believe it or not, nobody had the spare time on their hands to randomly want to look at student phones.

When a student goes away and pre-empts why they think they're going to be spoken to about a situation, it's usually because their conduct in some way isn't what it should have been. It's no different to when you have meetings with some members of staff and suddenly just before it (when you know they've not done things properly), they suddenly start telling you about seemingly irrelevant things but just enough that you know excuses are being planted as to why they've done the thing you're going to talk to them about. It's damage limitation and trying to redirect attention away from their own involvement.

StreetwiseHercules
Not all teachers are trustworthy and not all have good judgement. From my high school days it was about 50% decent and 50% morons/bullies.

Or alternatively
50% let me get away with stuff and 50% didn't.

Maisy, you might think that but it’s not up to you to prejudge. I wouldn’t allow a teacher to unlock my child’s phone and look through it without my being consulted and having had the chance to speak privately with my child first.

People can be incriminated by way of content sent to them and not sought out. I would need to be sure of the position before agreeing to anything which could potentially incriminate my child.

The phone would be my property. Unlocking it would also be an illegal invasion of my privacy which I also would not accept.

Were I able to help with an inquiry after having made a calm assessment then I probably would.

You keep saying it's illegal. It's not.
The law is clear.

I love the idea that schools should tell student A (who they have reasonable reason to believe has got explicit images of underage peers) that they have a concern, student A should refuse a phone search, but school should call the parent (meanwhile information could be being wiped by the student), the parent has a chat with the child because obviously school shouldn't act on any information they have (again parent or child could wipe things), only for the parent and child to decide later they are ok for the phone to be searched, after they both arrange for data to be deleted and then sit there smugly boasting their child's innocence to the school.
Meanwhile the student learns nothing and knows that their parent will back them and they can continue to be involved in sharing indecent images of children

You've said it yourself, you want to prevent your child being incriminated. If they've don't nothing wrong then there'd be nothing incriminating to find.

It's like the thread where an OP mininised her DC being inapproriate to staff and made a big deal about how her child's phone was his safe space and she respects his privacy etc. Turns out he had sexual images of underage peers, but its really not his fault because how was he to help all these girls sending photos to him and him sexting and sending naked images of himself. I mean, he was the victim of a mean member of staff who needed to lighten up over sexual harassment.

Streetwise

What is your job?

This is the guidance I am referring to. All under the title of electronic devices.

Mobile phones are not necessarily banned in school, so this could mean any banned electronic device. It’s fairly clear I think.

1. Statutory guidance for dealing with electronic devices

• Where the person conducting the search finds an electronic device that is prohibited by the school rules or that they reasonably suspects has been, or is likely to be, used to commit an offence or cause personal injury or damage to property, they may examine any data or files on the device where there is a good reason to do so. They may also delete data or files if they think there is a good reason to do so, unless they are going to give the device to the police. This power applies to all schools and there is no need to have parental consent to search through a young person’s mobile phone if it has been seized in a lawful ‘without consent’ search and is prohibited by the school rules or is reasonably suspected of being, or being likely to be, used to commit an offence or cause personal injury or damage to property.

• The member of staff must have regard to the following guidance issued by the Secretary of State when determining what is a “good reason” for examining or erasing the contents of an electronic device:

• In determining a ‘good reason’ to examine or erase the data or files the staff member should reasonably suspect that the data or file on the device in question has been, or could be, used to cause harm, to disrupt teaching or break the school rules.

• If an electronic device that is prohibited by the school rules has been seized and the member of staff has reasonable grounds to suspect that it contains evidence in relation to an offence, they must give the device to the police as soon as it is reasonably practicable. Material on the device that is suspected to be evidence relevant to an offence, or that is a pornographic image of a child or an extreme pornographic image, should not be deleted prior to giving the device to the police.

4
• If a staff member does not find any material that they suspect is evidence in relation to an offence, and decides not to give the device to the police, they can decide whether it is appropriate to delete any files or data from the device or to retain the device as evidence of a breach of school discipline.
• All school staff should be aware that behaviours linked to sexting put a child in danger. Governing bodies should ensure sexting and the school’s approach to it is reflected in the child protection policy. The UK Council for Child Internet Safety

cauliflower I have absolutely no idea why you think that means what you seem to believe it does. My mind is boggled

sorry your mind is boggled by this. Luckily all the colleagues I work with read and understand it the same as I do, so we’ve had no difficulties with it.

We should probably drop it - I can’t explain it any further.

cauliflower
The guidance makes sense. Schools apply it.

People can be free to agree or disagree with elements of the law but it doesn't change it (e.g. I personally think no notice detentions should be ok most of the time, but it is allowed).
It's almost getting to the point on this thread like the detention ones where (despite the laws) a handful of posters will claim schools need to have parental consent for a detention, that parents can refuse permission and to call ofsted if school use the behaviour policy following a missed detention.

So can they only go through someone's phone if they are searched first and it is found?

ave
But they are allowed to search for them too.

Don't get me wrong, someone could be up to no good on their phone, not have it in school to be searched etc and then get not have anything searched, but in that situation the phone would be a fairly low concern compared to someone who is calculated enough to misuse technology (probably be causing harm or distress to others) and do all they can to cover their tracks. As a series of behaviour that's quite troubling and no reasonable parent would say that's a normal or reasonable set of behaviours.

Schools are not empowered or capable or carrying out criminal investigations. Police cannot compel someone to unlock their phone, so schools certainly cannot, especially a vulnerable person without adult representation.

Yes, there may be something incriminating on a child’s phone, but that does not mean the child or their parents are obliged to incriminate themselves by revealing it. That a fundamental matter of law, the right not to incriminate oneself.

If teachers have reasonable grounds to suspect criminality they need to e parents and the police. It’s not their place as amateur Columbos to go tampering with any evidence. If there were criminality suspected at later date any case would collapse for procedural and chain of custody evidence issues.

Teachers must contact the police and parents where they have reasonable grounds to suspect criminality. If they have no grounds to suspect that then they have no business compelling my child to unlock my phone for them to have a look through. My child will always have a phone at secondary school for safeguarding purposes.

Normally you’d ask them to hand over their phone or empty their pockets - you wouldn’t have to search as such. It could be that it’s in a locker but more usually they have them in their pockets.

As people have already said countless times, it does not have to be criminal for schools to have the authority to search.

Not liking the law doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

A PP has posted the relevant information already.

I personally don't agree with no notice detentions after school, but by law schools have the authority to do them. I dont go on threads about detentions claiming the law is something else because I don't agree with it.

“MaisyPops

As people have already said countless times, it does not have to be criminal for schools to have the authority to search. ”

I have not said otherwise. Schools may search, and they may take the phone, but they cannot and most not interfere with any evidence stored on any electronic device.

Let me sum up. The school can get their hands on a phone, but they cannot force anyone to unlock it. And it’s a bad idea if they try.