AIBU to ask if school can go through my son's phone?

[ejk10]

This hasn't happened to my son yet -but he thinks it might, and happened to some of his friends today.

Apparently a child has made a statement which the school is investigating (none of the boys have been told what the complaint is) and a teacher demanded to look through this boy's phone and deleted some information. My son has not been questioned but is friends with those who have been and is wondering if the school would ask to look at his phone.

I'm not sure of the legalities of this. Part of me thinks if he has nothing wrong why worry if they look - another part of me thinks it is a huge invasion of privacy. My son assures me he has done nothing wrong - regardless of whether he has or not I'm questioning if they have the right to look through private data.

Can anyone shed any light?

That social services wouldn’t say “look at the phone”?

That schools don’t have the most comprehensive overview of children and families.

That there are other agencies that we can pass stuff on to.

"If the teacher has decide to interpret statutory guidance himself, then he is very foolish."

The word 'interpret' is interesting there - do you mean 'follow'? if so, then stating that 'following statutory guidance is foolish' is definitely false.

I mean interpret. It is only guidance, and further advice should be sought I would never advise makinh a decision at work based on statutory guidance. If you find yourself in a situation where you need to look at statutory guidance you should take legal advice before proceeding.

That a school will used 'forced threat and coercion' when asking a student to unlock a phone - especially as you have given no definition of what that looks like in the context of a school with a clearly-defined authority structure and discipline policy...

I’m not going to give you a definition, because it is self explanatory. I didn’t say either that a school would do this; I said that they should not.

Who’s making false assertions now?

If you find yourself in a situation where you need to look at statutory guidance you should take legal advice before proceeding.

So any time I use any of these
www.gov.uk/government/collections/statutory-guidance-schools I should seek legal advice before proceeding???

Hahahahahahahahaha. I'd be consulting a lawyer about, ooh, every 5 minutes?

You do realise that there are over 50 documents of statutory guidance in that link?

I'm about to go and look at one of them - the Mathematics National Curriculum. Should I seek legal advice before I decide exactly how to interpret one of its statements??

It is allowed by law -- by amendments to the Education Act 1996. www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/56/chapter/II/crossheading/powers-to-search-pupils

The statutory guidance is more readable, but should be derived from the law. I think some parts of the law eg deleting data require those doing it to have regard to the guidance.

The human rights aspects have been considered: eg publications.parliament.uk/pa/jt201012/jtselect/jtrights/154/15404.htm although it's not clear all the suggestions were taken on board.

So you are completely happy for a school to ask a child to unlock their mobile phone, using the normal authority and the normal procedures in their discipline policy for non-compliance, and for that NOT to be forced threat and coercion, and be in accordance with FOLLOWING (not interpreting) the words in the statutory guidance.

Because that is completely obvious to ME, though it may not be completely obvious to YOU?

Ahhh there we go.

(Sorry, Nini, cross-posted with your much more pertinent post)

Useful to note the last line of section 5:

possessions”, in relation to P, includes any goods over which P has or appears to have control

StreetwiseHercules on what planet is it more acceptable for a social worker to look through a phone than a teacher? We aren’t bestowed special skills phone detective upon us when registering with our regulatory body, you know.

Whether you agree with teachers looking through phones or not, a few people on here have an embarrassing lack of understanding about the role of statutory guidance. It is most certainly taken inti account when going to legally challenge a person/people/organisation and going to court. Those of us who work in jobs where we use the law absolutely must follow the statutory guidance. It tells us how to apply the law.

Should I seek legal advice before I decide exactly how to interpret one of its statements??
Obviously.
Plus, I don't get what your problem is anyway, firstly schools have loads of spare time and cash lying around for things like this.
Secondly, if you've got enough staff and legal bods in your area I'm sure you could do it without having to pay. After all, lawyers have to give 30 minute free consultations where they absolutely will solve your issue and give you legal clarity for free.

Sorry, I've been reading the 'terrible advice' thread.

I shall repeat my earlier question: do you really think in issuing these guidelines parliament was giving teachers more rights vis a vis searching than police officers? Does that seem likely to you?!

Well, yes. Within the school context teachers certainly have more power than the police do. A police officer couldn't confiscate someone's belongings, or make them sit in detention, or punish them by making them clear the playground, for instance. Essentially by sending your child to school you authorise the teachers to use those powers.

Very true.

Okokokok.

I had this situation today with a child - I’ll call her Sarah:

Me: Sarah, you just had your phone out.
Sarah: no I didn’t!
Me: I just saw it.
Sarah: I didn’t.
Emma (from across the table) she did. She just took a photo.
Sarah: snitch
Me: woah...

Now:

Should I have:
a) stopped my lesson midway through to continue the discussion, confiscated the phone, somehow got hold of her parents when i teach back to back all day, waited until 6 (when her parents finish work), insisted they come in, waited for them with the phone, asked them to have a chat and decide whether we could look at the phone then go with whatever decision they made.

OR

b) tell Sarah to hand over the phone, get her to unlock it and show me the photo, get her to delete it (or Emily, bless her, working hard), confiscate the phone until the end of school then give it back.

Whaddawereckon?

*of Emily

You should have done nothing. Even suggesting the phone might have been used was out of order because when Sarah called someone a snitch you broke her human rights not to incriminate herself. That proves you're just seeing to control children and coerce them into cowering in fear. After all, had you not challenged Sarah then she'd never have admitted to having done anything wrong (and we all know the real issue isn't wrongdoing, it's potentially having to take responsibility).

You should have said and don't nothing that might so much as allude to any wrongdoing. Then in your break you should call social services and the police to seek legal advice on the situation. Only should you have stayed at work until 6pm to call Sarah's parents or carers. Then they'd decide (only having consulted with Sarah) if they would consider having a meeting at 6:45pm next Wednesday, but the topic of that meeting would be about how awful you were for suggesting their child would ever use their phone inappropriately and how you've wasted their time because by 9pm that evening there were no photos of Emily on sarah' s phone. The fact they'd gone all over Snapchat and been circulated prior to deletion is irrelevant.

I can't believe you'd have considered doing anything else

Thank you Maisy

Most helpful. I shall print out that post and stick it on my wall for future reference.

My CPD from this: do not imply any child has done anything wrong without prior consultation with parents, social worker, calling 111 (or possibly 999) and booking the child in for 30 mins free legal advice.

I think the advice about ringing the police and social services in break time is spot on. You’d definitely get the right person and a quick resolution from both agencies in that 10 minute slot.

I’m a little anxious about Emma’s rights in this. I’m assuming another call to the police to suggest she and her family go immediately into the witness protection scheme but would really appreciate clarification. From the post it sounds as if Emma wasn’t scared but she could have been intimidated by someone else to say this, peer-on-peer abuse? I can’t find legislation for this precise situation (and we all know not to follow statutory guidance because that’s just written for shits and giggles). Is there any advice for Emma?

Oh bollocks.

Emma’s mom is a nurse and is on nights this week. Should I meet her in school at 6a.m. when she finishes?

Yes that seems really convenient. I think you need to make sure the social worker is there though because they might know the family better and be able to judge that photo with a better professional eye than you. It’s all about knowing your place really and understanding that beyond your subject curriculum you are a nothing. Hope that helps.

Yes, that does help Cauliflower, thank you.

I’m not totally sure social services have an overnight service, but I’m sure I’ll manage to find someone by 6a.m.

Should I call MI6, just in case they are needed to get into the phone? Or am I overstepping the mark?

I’d be anxious about the ramifications of possibly coercing the secret service. Might they feel their human rights were being compromised? You really have to think this through. And I appreciate it’s very tricky when you really have no understanding of anything to do with schools or children or the law or anything beyond your subject.

Probably best to ask social services to bring their legal team of experts with them to advise. Just tell them you’ve read the statutory guidance but you think it’s a load of rubbish and not linked in any way to the law.