To email school AGAIN re religious assemblies

[pineapplepenthouse]

I have twins in year 4 both in different classes. I have expressed my feelings about not letting them be involved in religious assemblies or having anything to do with religion. My children are in different classes. Today for the third time my DDs has come home saying he has been included in the religious assembly.
I have strong feelings on this but other mums just say 'it's not a big deal' and 'it didn't do us any harm'.

AIBU?

You have the formal right of withdrawal but must be in writing and make reference to the stipulations under the 1944 Education Act.
However you do realise it is perfectly possible to be an atheist and still be able to understand religious perspectives? I manage to be quite a happy humanist, yet my job is to teach religious studies...quite successfully to predominantly atheistic (or at least agnostic kids).
If the school is non-faith but the assemblies are explicit worship then I would agree this is a problem, but current guidance is that assemblies should have a religious characteristic, which includes philosophical and ethical concepts. This is how I managed to do a Christmas assembly discussing Jesus as an ordinary bloke who was written up as a Messiah to fit myth and that he was most probably born in April around 4BCE.

@BertrandRussell who says that they don't?
Even faith schools have to follow a broad RE syllabus especially as many of them make GCSE RS compulsory. If they didn't their students would fail the course as they have to be able to compare, contrast and evaluate differing viewpoints and the exam boards are very clear that atheistic views must be covered.

Seriously, how many people have suffered in the name of religion. How many innocent lives have been ruined by the Catholic Church. People have lots of reasons for wanting to exclude their children from religious worship. To say to is ‘silly’ is ignorant and judgemental.

1944 Education Act applies to England and Wales. OP is in Scotland and had the right to withdraw her children without reference to any act. OP had also stated that the assemblies are religious based on Christianity.

I don't think we can compare 125million to 3.9billion as well as the huge influence that the Bible has had on the Western world

We can if you consider like for like. Check out current best sellers on Amazon, the Bible makes it in at 1,477. In America it comes in at 3,059. Not quite the best seller.

To say that this the Bible has no value whatsoever (morality issues aside) seems quite a prejudiced view to me
Not dismissing other peoples views, just saying in my educated opinion having read the Bible is that it has nothing of uniquely worthwhile value to teach children or humanity. In fact it has an awful lot of negative values I would rather children were NOT taught.

Op if you don’t want them to take part that’s entirely your choice and you are right to contact the school to ensure they follow up. I don’t think the teacher should have said it was silly. I think she should have remained professional and just followed your request.

My children are at a catholic faith school because I believe in god and I want to offer my children religious education. They do have a mixture of children at the school. Some attend as it’s the most convenient school for them to travel to, some because it’s one of the top performing schools in the area. There is also different backgrounds and ethnicities so lots of children attending that are not being brought up as Catholics. It’s not an issue for the school they do have provisions for anyone not taking part in any of the religious side of the school. I think it’s good that not every child at my children’s catholic school is not catholic as this allows them to see other people’s belief or non beliefs. For the children attending who are not catholic I hope this gives them a little understanding of ther fellow pupils beliefs.

I received education on other faiths while at school, it’s not issue, no threat to my beliefs to hear what others believe, my husband is of no faith and classes himself as being atheist.. not an issue he loves me I love him and he’s happy to support me with the children getting to mass etc.

My point is it’s called tolerance and learning respecting other people’s opinions... the world would be in a better state of more of us could do this!

Some people feel the need to really try and strip down other people’s religious beliefs!

A little tollerence and respect would go along way as it comes across as very intolerant and disrespectful.

tollerence

I'm pretty sure nobody on here has suggested that children whose parent are adherents of religion Xshould not be permitted to attend an assembly based on religion X.

But we HAVE seen people suggesting that children whose parents are NOT adherents of religion X should be obliged to attend an assembly based on religion X, despite the parents objections.

So who needs to become more tolerant and respectful?

The parents?

Or the school?

I'm atheist . (Very much so.) Have three kids - one of whom is still in primary and I object to this nonsense being taught as fact. I don't mind it being taught as an important part of Western Culture / Literature but when it comes to grown men and women of the evangelical persuasion going into schools and trying to happy clappy vulnerable young minds into their outdated bronze-age philosophy I feel it's a form of state-sanction child abuse.

For years I've been suggesting my kids primary (I'm in Scotland ) do a real nativity play at Christmas: include the Flight to Egypt and the Slaughter of the Innocents. The kids would love it. All that blood! They should have an Easter Passion play too (with real nails!). The real deal. Not the Disneyfied version they get spoon-fed.

Having said that, I haven't pulled my kids out of religious assemblies. Being outsiders living in a very small village it's hard enough being truly part of the community without making my kids stand out. I figure they'll grow past it. Like my 16 year old DD has grown out of liking the Telly Tubbies, and all things Kawaii, and has Gasp! put her once all-important collection of Bleach manga on eBay.

They need to learn that adults are, sometimes, totally wrong and that they get lied to. We all do. Sometimes with the best intentions but still lied to. Valuable lesson.

I'm finding it pretty funny that the pro-forced worship posters (Christian only of course. We wouldn't want the kids being told they have to take out prayer mats, remove their shoes, kneel down and pray to Allah in assembly or pop a Kippah on their heads and listen to readings from a Rabbi) are cherry picking what they're reading here. The OP hasn't said half the crap she is being shouted down for but I suppose like any good Christian, cherry picking is part and parcel of it. Unless of course the school uniform doesn't contain mixed fibres, the pupils and teachers don't eat any shellfish and of course, any foreign student is available to purchase.......

I accept that people have been seriously hurt and persecuted in the name of religion but not come across children traumatised by a moderate type of assembly.

However the op talks about a loony guitar playing preacher man taking assembly and children being given hard sell evangelism. That would worry me. So in her place I would write and ask for children to be excused and maybe even raise a concern, religion is interesting (for some), but there should be no bias.

I wonder where all this has come from in recent years, it used not to be so extreme. It's a step backwards. A couple of rousing hymns was the norm and sometimes kids who were Jewish or Muslim would give a little talk about their traditions.

My DS attended a Catholic primary school, we aren't Catholic or any religion at all, we have never attended church, the nearest we ever got to religion was when DS went to pre school that was held in the local church hall. The only reason that he went was that it was the best school in the area, we put the 3 best schools down on his primary application form & it was the one that he got a place in ( very low birth rate year) I never pulled him out of assemblies & by the time he was 5 he knew all the crossing & all the right answers at the right times during prayers, he knew that we were non believers & that in our eyes the rules of Catholicism were based on stories that had no proof in them. Every lesson in the school was based around Catholic beliefs, subjects were arranged around the religious calendar even though 50% of the pupils weren't Catholic, the children were expected to attend church during school time even if they weren't Catholic. They taught the religious knowledge of first holy communion & my DS asked me why he wouldn't be going to his first holy communion with the rest of his class, I explained to him that the other pupils believed in going to church & part of that involved going to the first holy communion ceremony & that we did not believe in God & instead of having to go to church on a Sunday, we did fun things like going to the park or swimming, that while we celebrated Easter & Christmas it wasn't from a religious point of view, we celebrated the fact that it was a holiday & that we gave presents & Easter eggs because it was a nice thing to do & to celebrate being a family. When DS was leaving primary to go to secondary school there was a leavers assembly where the Y6 children took the assembly & talked about their time at the school, they were presented with a goody bag that had their yearbook in, sweets a small soft toy wearing the school uniform, a prayer card & a wooden cross. When we arrived home DS opened his goody bag, gave me the prayer card & cross & asked me to get rid of them as he no longer had to pretend that he believed in God. I think that religion should be separate from school, there shouldn't be faith schools, religion is something that should be taught in the family & not within school, once you leave school there aren't Catholic or Muslim employers, employment is mainly non secular. Religion is a private subject & should remain that way.

OP, if the teacher once more ignores your request, then you need to send a formal letter to the HT/Principal.

Have you considered that children are entitled to learn about everything on offer if they are to live as adults in a world where understanding one another is the key to living in society? We always hope our children will choose for themselves what faith they want to follow, but how can they do that if they are not allowed to learn about other faiths? We have children to nurture and care for them and teach them how to live until they are independent. We do not have the right to decide what they believe in their hearts. No one can control their spirituality much as we would like to. Just imagine a child going on to university knowing nothing about the beliefs of the other students? Also, if you prevent them from finding their own way in life they may do the opposite. I see my God through the eyes of Jesus Christ and I think everyone is entitled to have the chance to put their foot on the first rung of the ladder of the Holy Spirit. That does not mean that I would not welcome information on other faiths.

walkingdeadfangirl: Why do you think the Bible has nothing to teach children. Have you actually read it? Anything that has ever been written by anyone in the past 4,000 years is already in the Bible. It contains the 'plots' for every novel written. It also has some interesting details of the first account of genetic engineering; describes diseases and how to deal with them; gives spiritual understanding and so much more. It is also the history of the Israelites and their battles with life as well as overcoming so much. Without the Bible I would not know of the wonderful life of Jesus. I challenge you to read it and then say there is nothing interesting in it. You may even start writing a novel using some of the plots contained therein. I think if the theologians had not kept it to themselves for so long we might have learned more science and medicine sooner.

How do your children feel about being separated from their friends?

llizzie :

Why do you think the Bible has nothing to teach children.
Which Bible and which interpretation would you suggest we teach, given there are 40,000+ different denominations of Christianity in the world how does one decide which version or interpretation is correct? Or do you just pick one at random with no regards to the actual truth?

When I read it myself I noticed the very first sentence has factual errors in it. Before we even get to a malevolent god punishing the entire human race for acquiring knowledge, committing global genocide, misogyny & homophobia (to name but a few), all the way through to 'Revelations', need I say more. At the very least the book should have an 18 rating on it. So why would anyone want to teach it to young children?

Anything that has ever been written by anyone in the past 4,000 years is already in the Bible.
Yea just like Harry Potter, which is a much more relevant and enjoyable read for children. So why use a dry boring 2/3000 year old highly edited, mistranslated & factually incorrect text that is a bad copy of older myths and legends, to teach children?

It also has some interesting details of the first account of genetic engineering; describes diseases...
Are you joking, the Bible says NOTHING about genetic engineering. And the only thing about disease in it is how to use them to punish people. Are you trolling?

gives spiritual understanding and so much more
Having read it I came away with zero spiritual understanding. What even is spiritual understanding?

It is also the history of the Israelites
We dont live in Israel so I would rather my children were taught the history of England first, global history second and the history of a country on the other side of the world last.

Without the Bible I would not know of the wonderful life of Jesus
Good for you, now stop forcing it upon other children in school. Lets teach children about the lives of historical people who actually existed and actually did real things that actually made real peoples lives better.

we might have learned more science and medicine sooner
Scraping the barrel here. Religion actively tries to stop the progress of science and medicine, have you herd of the dark ages? And still does even to this day. Science progresses in spite of religion, when good men and women stand up to religious dogma, ideology, and beliefs.

Do you mean the KJV, Lizzie? Or the Douay bible?
Hint - this is what RCs 'get arsey' about, and what provided the impetus to the campaign of John Hughes, RC Archbishop of NYC in the mid 1800s, to clarify that separation of church and state was a doctrine that should extend to public schools in the US.

What of Christian religions that do not see the bible in terms of sola scriptura but as prima scriptura?

*llizzie

It’s just dawned on me that you wouldn’t be supportive of your children wishing to believe in God as a result of the evangelical gospel believing minister visiting the school!

This is exactly why Muslims and Jewish countries laugh in our face, because we’re a Christian country yet ...

Whereas I would let them decide for themselves at 14 whether they wish to have a believers baptism and be supportive if that’s the direction my children wish to take!

To my mind learning about faith is much like learning a modern foreign language! You need to learn it young to gain an understanding of it and then make a choice.
And it needs to be taught properly which only a minister who believes in the gospel can actually do !

We always hope our children will choose for themselves what faith they want to follow, but how can they do that if they are not allowed to learn about other faiths? We have children to nurture and care for them and teach them how to live until they are independent. We do not have the right to decide what they believe in their hearts. No one can control their spirituality much as we would like to.

I agree with all of that llizzie, but as a practicing RC I would still not like my children to have to learn a protestant Lord's Prayer in school and recite another one at Mass. I was fortunate enough to be able to afford to send my DCs to a RC elementary school in the US, where I expected they would encounter no difference between what they were taught at home and at school wrt RC beliefs and practices.

I can very much empathise with the angst of parents who are atheist or non-Christian who have no choice but to send their children to schools where beliefs and maybe even the content of the curriculum are contrary to their family's beliefs. (My sympathy only extends to those who can accept the basic premise of the scientific method though. I have little time for people who, for example, base a decision not to vaccinate their children on a religious belief, or who won't look at scientific evidence for evolution, or who deny the significance of scientific evidence in general).

I am thankful that my DCs were able to learn something of other organised religions at their particular elementary school - accomplished by means of formal study and also visits to other places of worship. They also studied the US constitution and learned a lot about the separation of church and state. In their public (state) high school they all took a mandated course on World History that encompassed the history of various major world religions and religious systems. (Along with several other history courses).

A great many of my relatives, born in Ireland and brought up in a society that was overwhelmingly RC, were sent to schools that were overtly RC where they probably did not learn much of other religions if my experience is anything to go by, now consider themselves Buddhists, and some are atheists. They managed to get from Point A to Point B relatively smoothly despite never setting foot in a class called RE.

That's not good - I would take this further and speak to someone in person at the school.

It doesn't matter whether or not people think you should let the kids be in the assembly - the point is that you've made several written requests that they not take part and they have been ignored. That's not good enough.

I'd kick up a bit of a fuss OP, YANBU

Ahhh right. Telling you your religious choice is ‘silly’ is unacceptable. Could you imagine a Christian teacher saying that to a Muslim parent? 😬 hopefully the more sorts it.

*note not more

“Telling you your religious choice is ‘silly’ is unacceptable.”
But is exactly what the overwhelming majority of posters on this thread are saying to the OP!

Shocked at the general and accepted school bashing going on. I am a teacher. I have worked in faith and non faith schools. I am not religious but having been a teacher for a long time I can say with absolute understanding of the curriculum that there is no ‘indoctrination’ going on. We learn about tolerance and difference and living in a diverse world. I currently work in a non faith school and we learn about all faiths without a leaning towards one in particular. I think it is absolutely essential in today’s world to have an understanding of different beliefs. We have to understand that a large majority of the population have religious beliefs just as much as learning about those who don’t. Yes, you can withdraw your child but I have to say that in my whole career I have only ever know 1 or 2 parents who have done this. It is very uncommon.