To email school AGAIN re religious assemblies

[pineapplepenthouse]

I have twins in year 4 both in different classes. I have expressed my feelings about not letting them be involved in religious assemblies or having anything to do with religion. My children are in different classes. Today for the third time my DDs has come home saying he has been included in the religious assembly.
I have strong feelings on this but other mums just say 'it's not a big deal' and 'it didn't do us any harm'.

AIBU?

I think it should be up to your dcs if they want to attend a religious assembly. It's their choice to be part of a religion or not. You can only decide for yourself.

If they didn’t offer these services, the LA certainly wouldn’t, at least not for free. Having to listen to a few happy clappy songs seems small price to pay for what our school community gets in return.

Would you have the same point of view if McDonald's came into the school to sing McDonald's song and draw colourful pictures of Ronald, so long as they did charitable works?

Clearly, not all children would grow up to eat McDonald's every single day, so by previous poster's logic it wouldn't be proper indoctrination?

Oh I attended assembly at school, and RE lessons back in the day when RE was called RK and just about the only religion taught was Christianity. My mother was a Christian and brought me up in her faith and sent me to Sunday School regularly which I quite enjoyed.

I was never given the "we use 25th Dec as he is the light of the World" or "eggs represent the rolling away of the stone" thing, I don't think these theories existed back in the 60's! However I do know that greenery at mid winter is a pagan thing going back before the days of Christ, and that bunnies and eggs were symbols of Astarte (aka Ishtar) who was a pagan goddess of fertility & procreation. I suggest you look up Saturnalia, the Roman midwinter festival for things appropriated by Christianity, and also look at the similarities between the story of Mithras (pre dating Christ by a very long time) and Christ, especially the circumstances of his birth.

Actually leavby. My dc went to a cofe primary in London. There were circa 15% muslims there who had elected to send their DC to a faith school in an area with good primaries.

The school was fab and did teach about other faiths including trips to the local mosque, synagogue, sikh temple, buddhist temple, etc. All the christian children went. All the Muslim children were withdrawn.

Personally, I think you should just get on with it. It will make no difference to your children in the long term providing they are brought up in a liberal intellectual environment.

DH had v pious parents and avoided organised worship for decades; I had v liberal ones who never went but believed. Ours went until they didn't want to. Both are non believers and one is reading Theology.

They won't thank you for interfering and making them stand out.

Children can't make a choice about whether to follow a religion or not! Only adults can make those kinds of decisions. My children believe in fairies, santa, rabbits that deliver chocolates. They are completely unqualified to understand religion.

I always thought that christmas's date was set as the 25th December to tie in with the pagan festival of Yule, making it easier for the pagans to accept the new religion the Christian's were trying to force on everyone? Not sure why I thought this though?

I was withdrawn in primary school (Scotland in the 90s) from a weekly session where an evangelical Christian came in to class to talk about Jesus. This was a non-denominational school in inner city Glasgow so there was no need or place for it, and I wasn't the only kid whose parents withdrew them. We got to help out in the supply room instead (as a lover of stationery, this was a good thing!).

Thankfully there was nothing like that at secondary school. While a minister did sometimes come in to assemblies, his talks were always about morality etc. and nothing exclusively Christian in content. We learned about the various religions as we should: in proper religious education classes.

Your wishes should be listened to, but there shouldn't be religious assemblies in a non-denom school in the first place. It's annoying that this is still happening some 20 years after my experience.

Obviously McDonald assemblies would have to be followed by other lessons to let children know that other fast food outlets exist, for parity.

Apologies, I've not RTFT, but I know that state schools (those who are obliged to follow DfE guidance/rules) are required to carry out a collective act of daily worship.
The default for this appears to be Christianity.
This is a twofold problem:

1. There is no need for the act of worship in the first place. People can do this on their own time.
2. The worship should not focus on one faith.

It is absolutely fine to learn about all faiths. It is wrong to impose one faith above others.

I say I am an atheist and believe in science.

I say I am a devout Catholic and I believe in science. Please let's not further propagate the myth that anyone who has a belief in God doesn't also believe in science. There are many Catholic, Jewish, Muslim scientists. At least from a Catholic perspective, there is no conflict between science and our faith.

To the OP, if you choose not to have your children attend religious service, whilst I don't agree with your reasons, the school should respect your wishes.

I think it should be up to your dcs if they want to attend a religious assembly.

So religious parents are allowed to decide which religious ceremonies their kids attend but if you’re an atheist you should just suck it up?

@MabelBee how can they make an informed decision when they are older if they have been deprived of any knowledge of it?

OP do you also forbid them to learn about RE? Is it only Christianity they're not allowed to know about, or are you also raising them to be ignorant to Muslim culture? And all the other religions that children learn about

I think exposing your children to religious ideas is not a bad thing. I attended church until 14 years of age and I went to church for the last 4 years because my best friend went to church on Sunday and for no other reason. My mother has always been a staunch atheist but my father's family were religious and we went to church when we lived with my dad (years 5-8). I also attended a C of E primary school, and took religious education in secondary school. I still enjoy learning about religious based ideas to this day. But I have never been religious, nor do I believe in a god/gods. I think some values are good and other beliefs and traditions are plain rubbish, and at other times misogynist and xenophobic. But its easier to criticise religion if you have at least studied the religion and understand some of its basic ideas.

I think you should consider this as part of your child's education. And having tolerance of others' beliefs and custom will make for a more rounded adult in later life.

Also worth noting that the child sounds old enough to express their opinion. OP should ask if their child wants to participate (from a religious perspective not a get out of assemblies perspective) and follow their wishes.

Haven't read the whole thread OP but wanted to say I fully support your stance.

I've had 3 DC through primary school and i've removed all of them from collective worship. One headteacher was a pain in the arse. Insisted on a new letter every term. Frequently forgot to withdraw them (but never forgot to withdraw the muslim and JW kids).

In the end she called me in for a meeting and threatened to use the prevent legislation against me, as we were showing intolerance to Britishness (this is completely true!). I phoned the humanist society and they were incensed and spoke to her on my behalf. She backed down and we had no more problems.

Second headteacher has had no problem with it, but she doesn't do worship in assembly at all. She does closing your eyes and being thankful for things in your life, without thanking some higher deity. I'm happy with that. If they do have religious assembly then she withdraws DS and he has a great time with all the other atheist, JW, muslim and others who also withdraw.

Its utterly bizarre that in 2019 children are expected to take part in collective worship of a higher being in school FFS. Do it in your homes or churches or temples.

@GrammarTeacher

• I said anyone who believed the story of Noah's Ark having happened as a piece if recorded history was a psychopath.

• You took objection to be called a psychopath.

• From that it is fair to assume you believe the story of Noah's Ark to be an accurate recording of history.

Am I understanding this correctly?

@guineapiglet345

Where have you got this from?
If my (I'm religious) child seriously questioned their belief and didn't want to go to Church anymore, I would make provisions for them and not 'force' them to participate.

I think we know our children well enough to judge a serious doubt or a desire to play video games instead.

Spot on @WhatisFreddoingnow

This point that only athiests can be scientists is a nonsense. It's a superiority complex, basically.

I find it more shocking that Scotland has sectarianism reinforced by separate Catholic and non secular Church of Scotland schools

It’s madness. spend loads on integration programmes and trying to teach teenagers that the sectarian divide is nonsense because they’re all the same and yet we take 5 years olds and silently tell them they are different from their mates because they go to different schools...

Plus it’s also ridiculous that’s theres no option for a school that teaches Christianity in the same way as it does any other religion. All religions should be taught as ‘some people believe’ and taught equally in schools instead of this default that’s not remotely relevant anymore.

if your children's school only teaches RE via Christian assemblies, it's breaking the law in a different way, and it's not educating them properly.

where did you read that they are Christian assemblies?
I doubt my children are learning about islam in a Christian assembly!
My kids schools have weekly (I think) religious assemblies - religious, not a specific religion! They have been talked about, shown movies, sang about, read stories about several religions, usually linked to a religious celebration if there's one at that time of year.

So yes, around Christmas it was Christianity. It was also about Hanukkah around the same time.

Religious assemblies here are not worship, they are RE.

If you want teachers to babysit a child every time a subject comes that you don't like, you might want to consider private school or home school. I am getting pissed off of resources being used that way, but the school crying for volunteers because they don't have enough staff to help the learners when they need it.

Of course children can decide whether to follow a religion or not! Just as they can decide to be vegetarians. My primary aged kids have active views on all sorts of things including politics and religion.

Surely you knew this when you chose the school yet still chose it!

In Scotland you don't choose your school. Your child goes to the local school and has a choice between 1 Catholic or 1 the non-faith aka Church of Scotland school.

You can put in a placing request for another school but the way things have been going, even if you have a sibling in the other school it takes a miracle to get in (certainly in my area where they use converted portacabins in the playground as classrooms). It's not like the English system at all so please don't think she has an alternative.

I don’t see why the supervision is an issue in this particular case as the OP’s DD is allowed not to attend by her teacher - her twin brother can join her during religious assemblies.

Morning OP. When you say year four is he in P4 so 8 years old?

It is the school’s responsibility to meet your request here and they need to do it without eye rolling.

The issue may be that the teacher simply forgets and hasn’t organised an alternative space for your son to be or it could be more determined than that. Where does his sibling go?

I would suggest you write one, final, letter requesting that he attends no further religious assemblies and instead goes wherever his sibling goes. Request a reply from the head teacher

There is a big difference between attending lessons on religious background and sitting in an assembly on a specific branch of Christianity.

If they keep sending him to the assembly you may need to raise it further up.

Would you have the same point of view if McDonald's came into the school to sing McDonald's song and draw colourful pictures of Ronald, so long as they did charitable works?

No I wouldn’t because McDonald’s is a commercial business so there is no comparison.