A video that looks at both sides of dog bites

[Soubriquet]

Please do watch this. And if you have children, teach them how to read the signs of a dog who doesn’t want to be messed around with.

As an adult, learn the signs yourself and intervene as soon as you spot the dog starting to show signs

And never leave a dog and child alone together

link

I love dogs, but a badly trained dog is a loose canon. It's not just badly behaved dogs that bite though, is it? Thinking that way is naive.

A sick dog may react in ways he hasn't before
A dog in pain may react in ways he hasn't before
A hot dog may react in ways he hasn't before

Your friend is going to end up having to have her dog 'put to sleep'. Did she really try to explain to you that it's okay for her dog to bite you? She sounds nuts.

Fucking hell. DC aged 6 is terrified of dogs because of too many “friendly” dogs knocked him over to the ground. Sick of asking dog owners to keep their dogs away from my child and their snotty comments “ he’s just being friendly” and “ teach your child...”

MilkTwoSugarsThanks ask at your local dog training club. Most run classes for people who are either unused to or scared of dogs to learn the basics of dog body language and training.

I’ve been trying to think of a nice analogy all morning but it’s only just come to me.

Pedestrians have right of way on zebra crossings and green pedestrian light crossings, does that mean you do not teach your DC to check both ways for cars anyway? Do you wait for your DC to be run over Andy then say it was the car driver’s fault? It probably was and maybe sometimes it won’t be, but either way at that point who cares, you already have an injured child! Do you try to keep your DC away from all roads and all crossings because some drivers speed, are drunk, are inattentive or might have heart attacks behind the wheel?

The same applies to dogs.

I appreciate that the video deals mostly with kids and dogs sharing a household. I get that you need to teach a child how to be gentle and patient with animals, and not treat them like toys, but surely at the end of the day the child's safety comes first?

A kid should be able to be a kid in their own home and be random sometimes, to make mistakes without risking serious injury. It just seems so bizarre to expect a child to put all this mental energy into decoding the behaviour of a potentially dangerous animal all the time. Surely if the parent couldn't guarantee constant supervision and safety they would get rid of the dog without question? No way would I keep a dog after it growled or 'nipped' at a child. What am I missing here?

I keep my DD away from dogs and even with family dogs, I never leave her alone with them and encourage her to let the dog go off in the garden and stay away.

But as pp have said, when you're walking down the street or round the park and dogs coming bolting towards you what are you meant to do? It is scary especially for younger children who are the same size as the dog. Every time I ask a dog owner to put their dog on a lead or call it back they just laugh or ignore us.

We also get the stroppy attitude from family as I will not allow them to bring their dog into our home and when DD was a baby, I refused to visit unless the dog was to be kept seperate.

Dogs and children don't mix and dog owners need to start taking a bit more responsibility for their dogs in public places.

YABVU. So now its children fault when a dog bites them.
FFS dog owners, keep your animals leashed and if you cant train them not to bite then put a muzzle on them.

Notso but dogs are everywhere and it is unlikely to hope that your DCs will never come across any dogs in the next 90 years. You can also justify not teaching them to swim because you don’t take them to pools, but are they likely to be able to stay away from water for the next 90 years?

@Booboostwo I'm not sure what your suggesting. I get a dog to teach my children how to behave around it?
It might surprise you to know that I love dogs and three of my four children do too. However I am realistic and responsible and know our lifestyle wouldn't suit being dog owners, I know it would be left to me to do the majority of care for it and I wouldn't want the responsibility of always ensuring the children weren't left alone with the dog.
I'm not going to teach them to approach random dogs so they can learn about dog behaviour, and there just isn't the opportunity for them to get to know a familiar dog. The only dogs we see really are ones in public places.
To use your swimming analogy it's like I live with my kids in a desert with no bodies of water to learn to swim in. The best I can do as a parent is to tell my children if they come across a pool have a look but don't get in.

@Booboostwo - you are joking aren't you? It's not my responsibility to spend time and money that I don't have on something that someone else is responsible for.

Your dog, you monitor, you intervene when necessary, your responsibility.

When we walk through the park to school pickup, dogs quite often come and jump on my baby in the buggy. What should I be teaching my baby exactly?

We teach our kids to cross the road and to look out for cars especially ones driving too fast. It would be bonkers not to even though it is the responsibility of the driver to avoid pedestrians. There are over 8 million dogs in the UK. Surely it's common sense to teach children the basics of dog behaviour?

This is a bit like advice on how to avoid being attacked - don't leave your drink unattended, don't walk alone through dodgy areas at night, etc...
so obviously it invites us to conflate the concept of blame with the entirely separate concept of taking measures to minimise the possibility of being attacked.

Any dog attack is always the dog / dog owner's fault. Never the victim's fault. But still good to have knoweldge of how to spot and avoid the wrong 'uns.

Personally, I'd shoot the lot of them.

@MrsBethel So you reckon a dog that gets whacked by a kid and backed into a corner is in the wrong of it bites that child? That's bonkers. They're living creatures who feel fear just like we do.

Part of this debate makes me feel really uncomfortable.

Children shouldn’t be bouncing on top of dogs, poking eyes, teasing etc.
They absolutely should be taught to act respectfully. 100%.

But some of the things I hear I find a bit disturbing.

As if dogs have more rights than children and if they get bitten it’s their fault.

For example, ‘my child got bitten but it happened because she went to sit in the bed with the dog so totally understandable’.

What?!

Do these dogs have no boundaries or respect?

Children should be able to take a toy away from a dog without getting bitten.

They should be able to approach their bed without being bitten.

They should be able to stroke a dog eating and not be bitten.

A suitably socialised dog should surely be going to great lengths to avoid biting, showing its displeasure through growls, lip curls, air snaps, nips even, if more subtle methods have failed?

They should not be going straight for a bite surely?!

I love my dog but I can honestly say if my dog bit my child I honestly think I would have her put down immediately.

Kids come first.

Children should be able to take a toy away from a dog without getting bitten.

They should be able to approach their bed without being bitten.

They should be able to stroke a dog eating and not be bitten.

Would you be happy if you were minding your own business, eating or sleeping and something/someone much bigger than you came running over and starting prodding you, or tried to get into your bed, or tried to snatch your food?

Of course not. You'd be frightened, possibly angry and you'd lash out - possibly just through instinct. Why do we expect dogs to tolerate a whole load of abuse from children whose parents don't think to teach them "no"?

Dogs should be able to eat and sleep in peace without small children sticking their heads in the way and prodding or stroking them when they don't want to be played with!

Notso well of course you should allow your DCs to interact with unfamiliar dogs in the usual manner: you observe the dog as you approach, any signs of unease and you explain to your DCs what is happening and why you will now walk away, if all is well you ask the owner if the DCs can stroke the dog, if she says yes then the DCs ask the dog if it wants to be stroked by putting a hand out for the dog to sniff and stroking under the chin. You can also do Boorow My Doggie and take a class at your local dog training club. Like all things that you have to learn how to do, you have to practice.

MilkTwoSugarsThen if you can’t be bothered that is your choice. You can enjoy the moral high ground of the owner’s fault after your DC is bitten.

MrsBethel it is nothing like advice on how to avoid being raped. If rapists did not rape victims would not have to avoid being raped. But rapists are morally responsible adults who make a choice, this is not true for either DCs who provoke dogs or dogs who bite.

doggy (ironic nn btw).

I disagree with your whole post. Animals are living creatures with basic survival thoughts. They deserve respect and if you think invading their private safe space when they have had enough is ok you deserve to be bitten. If someone touches you in your bed or whilst your eating you wouldnt like it so why should a dog? A dog doesnt have a rational mind to think its only a child its fine. A dog sees it as intruder in my bed/on my food/toys.

So many dog haters seem to flock to these threads and its utterly stupid. Yes sometimes dogs attack unprovoked but a lot of the time they are provoked. Ive seen mang people allow their brats to sit on dogs and yank their tails and ears or drag them by legs and collars or push them roughly. The dogs give out clear distress signals that are always ignored until its too late. People do need to learn what a dog in distress looks like especially people who have dogs in their home. So its stupid people equating walking past a dog on a walk with this.

CilantroLarry

You did nothing wrong. Your friend did not pick up the cues that her dog was over stimulated. She was aware it was not being aggressive but should have stepped in when it was clear it was overexcited.
It is likely this dog is used to rough and tumble play and was unsure of the rules regarding semi known people and it is your friends failing here. As dog owners we need to be aware that if we fail to manage our dogs responsibly it is the dog that would pay the penalty.

I do not know how new people will react around my dogs and whilst you can train a dog to be reliable 99% of the time, there will always be the potential for them to be thrown by a new situation and behave unpredictably. Therefore, I know visitors can cause excitement, so I place the dogs in another room for the first 20 minutes of a visit. Then I bring them into the room and make sure they sit with me until they have settled. At this point I bring them in keeping hold of their collars and sit with them still with a hand on the collar, whilst reassuring the dog and giving them low level attention such as gentle stroking.
If the visit is short I just put them in another room, same for if we have tradesmen. I ask them to warn me if they need access to the room they are in and move them.

My dogs will bark at people passing but once the threshold is crossed they are treated as lifelong friends and greeted enthusiastically. For this reason all toilet visits outside and outside play in the garden is supervised as they look and sound scary and a stranger does not know how they will react, even if I do. If someone wishes to come in while the dogs are outside I ask them to wait while I bring the dogs inside and put them in a separate room. If they bark at a passing stranger, they are brought inside till they have passed.

They have been trained to ignore people on walks out and when we see other dogs approach they go back on their leads until the owner tells me they are okay to play. The only flashpoint is one of them has a judgy parenting streak and will investigate a crying child and has with friends tried to herd the child away from what he has deemed inadequate parents. For this reason I put them on the lead as soon as children are around as strangers aren't going to find that as funny as friends do (even friends will only find it funny once as a novelty).

I do not inflict my dogs behaviour on others and by the same respect I do not allow my children to manhandle and invade a dogs space. Both can be unpredictable, so introductions are made under controlled conditions and supervised at all times.

So many dog haters seem to flock to these threads and its utterly stupid.

Utterly pathetic.

You don't have to hate dogs to expect their owners to keep them under control. You just have to be a normal human being who thinks some dog lovers are totally bonkers. If you can't trust it then muzzle it - it isn't hard.

Interesting that it's unreasonable to even entertain the idea that children should be taught to read basic dog body language, but entirely reasonable to expect an animal to be 100% impeccably behaved at all times no matter how much it may be provoked.

But then nothing brings out the crazy on MN like a good dog thread.

im not on facebook so i cant see the video 😐

@TrendyNorthLondonTeen I don't think it's that the animal needs to be 100% perfect, but that the owners needs to take on a little more responsibility such as those who do just let their dogs run up to people.

geepipe there is nothing ironic.
I have a dog. I love my dog. I love dogs in general. Have worked/volunteered/trained dogs.

I also think they need respect.
I would never advocate a parent allowing their child to pester or torture a dog.

However.
Dogs are social animals that thrive on rules, boundaries and respect (all social animals do, it’s not a ‘pack theory thing’).
They do much better when they know exactly what is expected of them.

The idea that a dog should absolutely never be approached in bed, when eating etc is ludicrous and potentially really dangerous.

There may well be times you need to handle your dog when he’s eating or whatever.

You need to be training your dog to accept handling and training them to move when asked, give up items when asked etc.

With food for example, puppies can be and should be taught that human hands around the food bowl precedes good things.

They should be learning that stroking while eating or a hand coming towards your nose while eating indicates good stuff like bacon or cheese or chicken or whatever is coming.

So in the event that you need to take their bowl away or move them for whatever reason or an errant child wanders in while your busy doing something else it is highly unlikely the dog will react badly..

What you shouldn’t do is never ever approach their bowl because it’s ‘distespectful’ and teach them that actually it is okay to guard things.

Allowing such a thing could lose that dog it’s life because the reality is a huge proportion of owners, myself included will euthanise a dog that injures a child.

It’s not disrespectful to the dog to teach them how they are expected to behave and teach them to accept intrusion and handling.

It keeps everyone safe and happy.

Also, the posters that have responded to my post are mentioning prodding, pulling etc.

I did say and will say again that I do not agree with children being allowed to tease or be rough with dogs.
They must be taught to be respectful.

But the idea that a child walking past and giving a little stroke to a dog and being bitten is no surprise, expected even or a child going to sit next to them in bed and being bitten deserved it/should have expected it because you don’t approach dogs in bed is just ridiculous.