To think that lots of men think this way

[Flynnshine]

Recently a good friend of my partners has split from his wife of 15 years, they have two young children between 10 and 13.
The husband has decided he isn't happy and wants to end the relationship.

Last week he came over to our house in the evening and I left him and my husband chatting in the living room. I wasn't eavesdropping but I was only in the next room so could hear their conversation. Basically the husband has been planning this split for a while, 6 months before he announced he wanted to end things he sold their beautiful big house and they moved into their much smaller starter home which they had out on rent - they moved the kids out of their private school education and into a state school local to their new home.

They've always had a very comfortable life, beautiful house, nice cars and very fancy holidays a few times a year. They both had good jobs when they first met but when the children came along the wife stopped work and dedicated her life to them. They've done amazingly well at school, both top of their classes, sporty and do two sports for their local borough. They are polite and thoughtful and genuinely lovely children.

The conversation I overheard was the husband complaining that even though the wife hasn't paid towards the mortgage for over 10 years she will still be entitled to half of what the house is worth - he seemed bitter and angry and said he'd been hiding money for ages so she wouldn't get anything when they divorce. He's even planning on quitting his job and becoming self employed so he can fudge his earnings so his maintenance payments could be less. My husband was agreeing with him, I don't know if just to placate him or if that's really how he feels!

This man honestly thinks that because he has been working and paying a mortgage that his worth is so much more. He thinks he has enabled her to not work for over 10 years and that she has been having a jolly all that time. It's like he gives zero shits that he has two wonderful children that he has never had to lift a finger for and she has given her all to those children while he reaps the rewards of that.

Do all men deep down think like this, even if they won't openly admit it? Is money really the be all and end all of everything!?

Fresta

mainly I suspect because modern society is trying to work towards equality (where women become like men- because somehow that is better

Aaaahh. So if men take care of the children and help with the household, are they becoming like women?

No, really not Lisa, really not, its the way you have interpreted it is all.

Best for the baby, yes, and that's what research supports, and I don't think DMS should have to be coerced out of their primary carer role and accused of gate-keeping if they try to defend their position of primary carer, despite the harm that does currently, due to society's (employment opportunities etc) perspective of that.

@TooSassy
It’s all very good to talk about biology and where we’ve come from, so fine let’s talk about it. If women are designed to be the parinary care giver, men are designed to procreate and spread their seed. Do you know how common extra marital affairs are in the older generation? Most men (when I was in my 20’s) who worked in the city had a crash pad in London and wife was ensconced the arse end of nowhere with the kiddies spending the money. They all had mistresses. All of them. Young girls my age whom they took shopping and to dinner. Then they went home and played family having had their egos stroked, sexual needs fulfilled and made to feel important, needed and listened to. But that’s ok right and we should expect that, because that’s what men are biologically wired to do
When reading this part of your post I was reminded of a quote from an article I linked earlier in this thread that suggested that the biological differences between the sexes were not always "morally good or justifiable". The author of the article goes on to say that in order to address the more morally dubious or undesirable traits that the different sexes may have, it is first important to acknowledge that the different traits exist in the first place.

So say your examples are correct and women have a proposenity to be primary care givers and at an extreme this can mainfest as a form of "gate keeper" parenting. I believe that whilst it's perfectly correct to address any undesirable "gate keeping" behaviour, I don't think that this is an argument about why women as a class shouldn't be the primary carers to their offspring as this is not undersirable in itself. That's potentially penalising the many for the sake of the few, like suggesting men should be banned from driving because they are involved in the most number of accidents despite the fact most men are perfectly safe and sensible drivers.

I also think the recent trend of denying the impact of even basic biological differences does lead to unrealistic expectations from men and women about equal parenting in the early days. As FFing is overwhelming the norm in the UK, many mothers and fathers of BFed babies have an expectation that their experience of parenting in the early days should mimic that of their friends and relatives that had FF babies when this is just not realistic. BFing can lead the baby to create such a sense of reliance on the mother that this will limit what the father can do practically and will almost certainly create a huge imbalance between parents, especially in the early months. Baby will not only look to the mother to feed, but also for comfort, and my experience is that a father pacing up and down with a screaming baby that just wants its mother is not necessarily a nice, pleasant bonding experience for anyone involved. Expressing can be time consuming, ineffective and lots of babies (including both of mine) can refuse the bottle when they are very young. Put simply, many babies don't believe in equal parenting, have a massive preference for their mothers and are not afraid of letting their preferences be known. A mother responding to their baby could well be accused of "gate keeper" parenting as they would be effectively excluding the father from being a completely equal parent, but would this be a fair accusation? Obviously as children grow then the dynamics change and there are more opportunities for dads to get involved, however the impact of biology especially in those early days shouldn't be underestimated and whilst I think it's great that modern fathers want to be more involved, there should be an understanding that the father's may well be (extremely) limited in the early days and this is not necessarily the mother as a result of the mother acting as a gate keeper

I also feel a bit about terms such as "mummy martyr" because they are so often used to put down women who mother in a biologically normal way. Some babies sleep best when near their mothers so it's not an act of martyrdom to cosleep. Breastfeeding has been proven to be the optimum way to feed your baby so you're not a martyr if you BF, even if you find it difficult or challenging.

Finally men may well be more driven to have the type of affairs you describe, but this would be pretty universally condemned and considered undesirable. Men are also more likely to carry out acts of violence and aggression, whilst women are more likely to suffer from depression, all of these things are also undesirable and we should look to address them. A woman being the primary care to her child is NOT in itself undesirable unless it is pushed to its extreme and her behaviour is unnecessary excluding the father and not in the best interests of her child.

lisasimpson I think it’s a shame that people presenting different views are choosing to leave this thread. We’re all learning from one another.

IME it’s no surprise to me that some people hold the views they do about WOHM and equally views about SAHM’s. It would be naive to say judgements don’t exist. When my first DC was 6 months old and I was at a party, I was asked (by a complete stranger) how long I planned to take off. I replied that I planned to go back to work at 10 months (PT) and my DC would be in nursery. This woman was shocked, and continued to reel off to me all the studies available about the emotional harm to children at being separated from their primary carer, especially under the age of 2 and the ‘trauma’ this could cause them. I got in a cab home and cried all the way back. Guilt ridden and utterly horrified.

Fast forward 10 years, I have gradually had to ‘teflon’ up and steel myself against a myriad of criticism. Which, not once have I have targeted towards the SAHM’s who have questioned my parenting choices. It’s now like water off a ducks back as (finally) studies are showing that a) co-parenting is actually super good for children and b) there is no difference between the children of SAHP vs WOHP. When they look at that particular lifestyle point for these children.

I remain of the view that so long as it works for the parents and they are happy, then the baby will be happy.

But, I stand by the gatekeeper parenting term and for absolutely clarity I am not referring to a babies first 6-12 months. The women I have referenced in my post earlier, one still cosleeps with her 4 year old. The first time she left the eldest with their father, at the age of 3, she returned from dinner to find an utterly distraught child and Avery upset father who had not been able to settle his own child. Because he’d not been given the space to build that bond. I’m not attacking attachment parenting but when the gatekeeping extends that far, yes I do absolutely think that is unhealthy.

That man goes to bed, most nights alone. His wife disappears to put the DC to bed and does not return. So he spends every evening alone.

Re the affairs being undesirable behaviour? Come and spend a few days in the City of London. And other major cities. They’re not frowned upon, especially by fellow men ‘in the know’. Who sympathise with the poor bloke whose wife is ignoring him. Because ‘we’ve all been there’. It’s also not frowned upon by the women who engage in these affairs with the married man. It’s far more widespread, even now, than many would like to admit. Do I judge the men for it? Not really, it’s a business environment, I don’t give it much thought.

They’re not frowned upon, especially by fellow men ‘in the know’. Who sympathise with the poor bloke whose wife is ignoring him. Because ‘we’ve all been there’. It’s also not frowned upon by the women who engage in these affairs with the married man.

Of course they don’t judge themselves or the women having the affairs with married men They’re clearly of dubious moral standard and trying to justify their deception to themselves.

These “poor men” may feel ignored by their wives but why not address the situation with them.... you know, communicate with your wife? There is no excuse for an affair, even the “mummy martyr/gatekeeper/whatever disparaging term we can foist upon women to excuse men’s selfish behaviour” giving herself to her children (his children!!) is not an excuse. You can always choose to behave differently and discuss the situation with his wife first. Do marriage vows mean squat??!

Honestly, this is all getting to sound very mysogyinistic now... the poor menz feelz are hurt because he’s no longer having his ego stroked because his wife has birthed and nurtured his child and no longer puts him first all the time so the poor little lamb has no choice but to seek comfort in the adoring arms of a childfree younger woman. Poor little neglected misunderstood man

That man goes to bed, most nights alone. His wife disappears to put the DC to bed and does not return.

You could also look at that another way that the mother deals with 100% of night feeds and wake ups getting all the disturbed sleep whilst he husband gets anlively uninterupted good nights sleep in a comfortable double bed and goes to work the next day fully rested and refreshed!! Poor man......?!

*a lovely uninterrupted

What a depressing, misogynistic and shocking perspective on family life. Women throw themselves into parenting and its reason for men to cheat, and its all accepted. That men are bound to go elsewhere if they don't 'get it' at home. Its all very disappointing and sickening that these views are seeming to still be very strong in some places, especially the land of the entitled businessmen.

Businessmen should never commit to a woman or family life if this is the case. They should be alone, and its a wonder any woman would touch them in an affair type situation tbh

In family life, men getting sex trumps everything else, no, its not a reason, and is really sick. He is risking his DC lives and wellbeing stupid man. Do it honestly, if family life is not for you, say so,and leave the women and DC to find someone decent.

@TooSassy
As a SAHM I have countless people question and judge my choice to stay at home and I really do think that rude and judgemental people will always voice their opinion of people that choose a different path to themselves. Most mothers work outside the home so whilst you may feel attacked by a small vocal minority, you are actually part of a majority group and making an extremely common decision to work.

Studies indicate that co-parenting following a separation is preferable and evidence around the beenfits of SAHPs is mixed. It certainly has not been emphatically proven that there is "no difference" between the two groups of children with WOHPs/SAHPs so I don't know how you can claim this?

I agree that gate keeping parenting exists and is undesirable, although I do think it is a term that is subject to abuse and can be thrown quote easily at new mothers that are following more "natural" methods of parenting which do place more emphasis on the mother. The following though I just find incredibly sad:

Re the affairs being undesirable behaviour? Come and spend a few days in the City of London. And other major cities. They’re not frowned upon, especially by fellow men ‘in the know’. Who sympathise with the poor bloke whose wife is ignoring him. Because ‘we’ve all been there’. It’s also not frowned upon by the women who engage in these affairs with the married man. It’s far more widespread, even now, than many would like to admit. Do I judge the men for it? Not really, it’s a business environment, I don’t give it much thought
I'm sure what you write is true, however I absolutely think that this is undesirable behaviour and just because it is accepted in business culture does not mean that it's not morally reprehensible and damaging to families. You may not judge their behaviour but I absolutely do and find the most distasteful element of it all to be their eagerness to blame their behaviour and actions on their partners and their colleagues (and your) willingness to buy into this without question. You have no idea in reality how their partner parents and what has driven her to do this, she could be dealing with a high needs baby or a child with a SEN that demands all her attention. Even if she was truly being a gate keeper parent then her partner should seek to address this issue and/or look to leave her if the situation won't change rather than acting like some victim that has no choice but to have an affair in order to get the attention he can't live without. Misogyny at its absolute worst!

My ds works in finance, self employed and went to London recently to meet up with some men from a corporate, as a networking opportunity.
He said they were all at it, from mistresses to using strip places/ lap dancing for business entertainment. Ew, he said he was glad to get back up north again. He said it opened his eyes that all these women married to these blokes either turned a blind eye as were used to the money he brought home, or they had no clue.
My dil said she'd rather be poor than live like that.

Sassy - I’m not sure why you seem intent on repeatedly coming back to ram home the message about “gatekeeper parenting” and now this insinuation that it causes / excuses the DH to have an affair.

Seriously, what’s all that about?

You could work in Tesco. There will be men there having affairs. Would you then go on MN and proclaim that “they’re all at it” and it’s somehow the wives fault?

AllI can say to you is this. Nearly all the men in our area and who we socialise with are bankers / CEOs / self-employed multi- millionaires, etc. The national divorce rate is 1 in 3. In our social circle it’s about 1 in 50.

If a man is the type to have an affair, then he’s the type. Yes some city types will be having affairs, but men in all walks of life are at it, as are women.

Whatever the circumstances for the affair, the guilty party will try and find a narrative - whether this be “he / she’s lazy,” or “he / she works too much” - the list is endless.

I will be totally honest with you that most of the men I know as decent people. What it comes down to us this - when you have money you have a different framework for decisions. They want the best schools and opportunities for their DC - they may be in a position to finance this, but who facilitates it? Who puts the extra work in to get the DS through the 11 plus for Westminster Under; or who gets the DD to swimming training 4 times a week? The DH’s know full-well that the best nanny in the world will not go “over and above” the way a mum will. You can’t pay them enough! I know a couple who both worked crazy hours and they did have a nanny who could co-ordinate all this kind of stuff and they paid her almost £40k per year. There came a point though, where the DC were falling behind at school because the nanny could only help them so far. The DH left work and got on the case. He got the DDs into the schools of their choice. The DW got a huge promotion since and he does property on the side, while being the SAHP for 4 DC.

The men I know with SAHWs don’t give a seconds thought to cleaning or who does the laundry. They don’t expect their wives to stay home to do this either. Most of these families have a cleaner a few times a week. My DH wouldn’t even know how often the cleaner comes if someone asked him. If I needed more help round the house, I’d ask the cleaning lady to do an extra shift before I asked DH to do 50/50 or whatever. I do cook for him if he’s coming home and he appreciates that. I absorb the majority of the after-school stress if our tweens / teens do that he doesn’t have to on top of his work. I’m in top of their school progress and support with their homework. I wouldn’t say I’m exactly scrubbing floors, but I make sure the house is in order, the beds changed, laundry done, etc. I have one DC who is a rower; the others do singing, dance and allsorts and I get them all over London in the evenings according to whatever’s going on. It’s exhsudting tbh. I don’t feel it would be reasonable to ask a nanny to do all this.

My DH has a great relationship with our DC. Yes he works a lot, but they know he does it for them. He’s consistent, kind and honest and anyway, he’s the only dad they have.

Children know when you’re doing your best and it doesn’t matter to them what you do.

Its horrific, misogyny is rife. The DMS, its possible, always think they are working hard and trust their dirty sick 'd'h or 'd'p. There may be still some very traditional roles here, where the DM has been laden with DC deliberate it to keep her barefoot and pregnant, and will be literally homeless with her DC without his financial support, meanwhile he climbs the financial/career ladder with her doing literally me very thing else, including laundering his filthy cheating pants...scum.

Many married women must be kept in the dark about these practices? They can't know their shitty Hs are up to this? Awful that its so normalised and minimised, and isn't that just classic.

@1ndig0 goosebumps, and eyes feeling little bit tingly, at that heartwarming extract of your family life, all pulling together. Everyone wins, in the other scenario, losers.

Argh, have been pulled back into the thread. Can we not just all be nicer to each other?! It's horrible to say that women who work are failing their children or parenting in a 'biologically abnormal way', it's horrible and pretty disgusting to say that SAHMs are somehow to blame if they get cheated on, or to imply that they inevitably will.

If there was one right answer here everyone would know it - if all WOHMs had damaged children this would be known by now; if all SAHMs had miserable lives and failing marriages then, again, this wouldn't be a secret! There is no one best way. DH and I are trying our level best to make the best lives we can for ourselves and - above all - DS. If we're getting it wrong then we're doing so from the best of intentions. It's not very easy choosing to something that's still so unusual on a societal level. It really doesn't help to be told that we're failing (or, let's face it, that I'm failing - though I suppose DH is failing because he doesn't make enough money?) before we've even really started - DS is only six months!

@Bumpitybumper

Oh god. Are you a Jordan Peterson fan by any chance? I come to Mumsnet to escape those awful creepy misogynists you find on Reddit. 🙄

Many married women must be kept in the dark about these practices? They can't know their shitty Hs are up to this? Awful that its so normalised and minimised, and isn't that just classic

Please ignore these creepy Jordan Peterson fans. They normally just fester in corners online, I've yet to meet one in real life. There is a lot of evidence that hypergamy is natural @Bumpitybumper , that women should be cheating on their partners? What do you think of that? You'd be happy to get cheated on because it's "natural"?

Also we have 17x the amount of maternal lines as paternal, meaning during evolution 1 in 17 men would reproduce, should we return to polyamory as that's what is "natural"?

www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2015/may/19/equality-and-polyamory-why-early-humans-werent-the-flintstones

Lisa agree with you there re: being nicer to each other. I sincerely have not meant any of my posts to come across as judgemental in any way.

Creepy Jordan Peterson fans Elle... I can't believe you are referring to my post, negatively? But are you?

Creepy Jordan Peterson fans Elle... I can't believe you are referring to my post, negatively? But are you?

No lmao I was saying that you should ignore the creepy misogynists not that you are one.

Oh! Ahh! Fucking phew!

I am so sad we are still fighting this battle, that women get slagged off and feel guilty for WOH and slagged off and guilty (losing economic and career prospects) if they SAH!

If they bf, I they dont,. So woefully inadequately supported to do this, especially when they might want to return to work.

Agreed, horrendous levels of mysogyny still.

*If they bf, if they dont

I’m PMSL here.

There is zero misogyny in my post. I’m very deliberately playing devils advocate. And since so many women on here are intent on talking about women not denying their biological instincts. And what is ‘natural’. I’m simply saying well let’s take that across to what is natural to men?

You can’t take an argument you’re using as ‘denying nature’ and then state that the same biological perspective from a different perspective is misogyny. If you think society should look back to primeaval times then look across at all behaviour that existed at that time.

That’s all I’m saying and no more. If you expect your biological needs to be met, then what about men’s? Re my comment about being ambivalent about affairs? What would you have me do? Walk around with a sandwich board ringing a bell calling out a register of offenders?

I would never engage in an affair and nor ever have I. Any man who came near me and tried would beat a hasty retreat quickly. My moral compass is fine, I’m not the morality police.

Nor am I a misogynist. Nice to see that you can’t give a coherent non name calling argument to my simple question re biology.

It strikes me that you want you want you want. Because of your natural needs. Biology. And the men had better just heed and understand. Whilst denying their biological needs.

And you all think this is fair? Interesting.