To think that lots of men think this way

[Flynnshine]

Recently a good friend of my partners has split from his wife of 15 years, they have two young children between 10 and 13.
The husband has decided he isn't happy and wants to end the relationship.

Last week he came over to our house in the evening and I left him and my husband chatting in the living room. I wasn't eavesdropping but I was only in the next room so could hear their conversation. Basically the husband has been planning this split for a while, 6 months before he announced he wanted to end things he sold their beautiful big house and they moved into their much smaller starter home which they had out on rent - they moved the kids out of their private school education and into a state school local to their new home.

They've always had a very comfortable life, beautiful house, nice cars and very fancy holidays a few times a year. They both had good jobs when they first met but when the children came along the wife stopped work and dedicated her life to them. They've done amazingly well at school, both top of their classes, sporty and do two sports for their local borough. They are polite and thoughtful and genuinely lovely children.

The conversation I overheard was the husband complaining that even though the wife hasn't paid towards the mortgage for over 10 years she will still be entitled to half of what the house is worth - he seemed bitter and angry and said he'd been hiding money for ages so she wouldn't get anything when they divorce. He's even planning on quitting his job and becoming self employed so he can fudge his earnings so his maintenance payments could be less. My husband was agreeing with him, I don't know if just to placate him or if that's really how he feels!

This man honestly thinks that because he has been working and paying a mortgage that his worth is so much more. He thinks he has enabled her to not work for over 10 years and that she has been having a jolly all that time. It's like he gives zero shits that he has two wonderful children that he has never had to lift a finger for and she has given her all to those children while he reaps the rewards of that.

Do all men deep down think like this, even if they won't openly admit it? Is money really the be all and end all of everything!?

Also, most of these men won't tell you they don't want to parent up front! That statement puts the burden of responsibility for that on the women, again
You should have those conversations before you get married and start a family. There is a risk that they will be disingenuous but nothing in life is risk free. You do what you can to manage that risk.

Why are men getting off light there; you can't know upfront their actual intentions unless you're with a genuine man, who loves and looks forward to having DC and being a big mpart of their lives

Where are men getting of lightly? Everyone has expressed their disgust at men who refuse to be equal parents to their children.
Again, conversations prior to starting a family help here. Believe it or not these genuine men do exist...that's what a number of us have been trying to say!

I cannot tell you the countless times that women, after splitting take on the responsibility of keeping their ex up to speed with everything going on in their dcs lives for the sake of maintaining good relations between father and DC!

These men are disgusting and don't deserve to have a family.

I think women in general work very hard for their DC

Who is saying any different?

I don’t think anyone is denying there are some shit parents out there who put their own needs ahead of their kids’. And this applies to mums as well as dads... we’ve seen the posts on here about some mums who sideline the father and refuse to share any parental leave even though the father desperately wants it, or who don’t trust the father to look after his own kids (or even empty the dishwasher and put the plates away come to that!)

It’s just far too simplistic to lump all men together as if they’re some alien species when in reality many men are decent people who want the same things as many women.

And we’re all in the same boat when it comes to choosing a partner... you do what you can to choose wisely and rationally, but there is always a risk. You can’t completely know how your partner will behave in the future- but that applies to men and to women.

Communication is key though; talking through your views on the most important things in life to ensure you’re at least starting off on the same page, and then continuing to keep the lines of communication open. Which Can be a challenge... I remember when our 3 dc were small and we were both working, no family support and we rarely even got an evening out together because paying a babysitter was a step too far after paying nursery fees. Being a parent is not easy! But keeping on talking and renegotiating when needed is essential.

That wasn't what was said blaa you should this you should that, you're doing it wrong, do it like me...

You're refusing to hear, and are picking holes in just absolutely everything said.

There certainly have been comments made about worked bloody hard those kind of comments make the statement their only everybody did that we'd have our idealogy, some worked more than just bloody hard and still don't get the choices some are lucky, yes, lucky enough to have, and I say that as someone who has been 'lucky enough' too.

You want to pretend that those men (that shouldn't have family or deserve a partner ) will tell you all this up front and that he world is t full of mysogynists and liars, that blight women and DC lives, and leave them broken, with no choices left.

Its pretty insulting stuff wiping out others' experiences the way and persistently calling people for not having used their choices wisely. That's unfeeling and quite ignorant of the realities of a lot of people's (women's) lives

You're doing it wrong, do it like me...

Nope...didn't say that. Do it your way. That's been my point all along.

You're refusing to hear, and are picking holes in just absolutely everything said

its pretty insulting stuff wiping out others' experiences the way and persistently calling people for not having used their choices wisely. That's unfeeling and quite ignorant of the realities of a lot of people's (women's) lives

I could say the same thing about pretty much every one of your posts.

• Your way as in what works best for you and your family.

@BlaaBlaaBlaa
I'm neither pro or against formula but i'm vehemently pro choice . Mentioning formula was in response to those using breastfeeding as a reason why men can't adequately care for their babies
Yes, but I think the way you emphasise the choice element is misleading. It's not like women are willfully ringfencing breastfeeding, biology determines they are the only ones that can do it and science has not yet developed a formula that is completely equivalent to breast milk. I have seen MRAs argue that mothers shouldn't be allowed to choose to breastfeed if this means this impacts on the father's ability to feed their child or have time with the baby away from the mother. Do you agree with them?

Btw I agree with those who have said infant feeding isn't a big issue in this debate. I just used it as an example where biological factors shaped "choices".

Bumpity- it’s a bit much to start quoting extremist MRA views and asking whether other posters agree with them!! Why not respond to what’s actually been written?

I genuinely don’t think anyone here has said ‘you should do as I do.’ Whether they’re SAHP or WOHP. People have just given differing views and experiences.

FWIW (in the nicest possible way) I couldn’t give a shiny shit what other mums do: it’s up to them and their partner.

I have seen MRAs argue that mothers shouldn't be allowed to choose to breastfeed if this means this impacts on the father's ability to feed their child or have time with the baby away from the mother. Do you agree with them?

Of course I bloody don't. If a woman chooses to breastfeed then it's important for dad's to step up to another element of childcare. Equality doesn't mean the same. I don't understand why that is hard to comprehend?

@Hubanmao
I genuinely didn't know how far Blaa's argument about choice and formula went. Apologies if it was inappropriate to reference MRAs though. I wasn't trying to say she was one or shared their views so I'm genuinely sorry if it came across that way.

@BlaaBlaaBlaa
Please see apology above.

I understand and agree with the mantra that equality doesn't mean the everyone doing the same. I guess our disagreement centres on WHY the sexes do different things and make different choices.

I genuinely didn't know how far Blaa's argument about choice and formula went. Apologies if it was inappropriate to reference MRAs though. I wasn't trying to say she was one or shared their views so I'm genuinely sorry if it came across that way.

I think you were just being inflammatory but apology accepted.

If being an active advocate for womens equality and free choice and being vocal about men taking their responsibilities as fathers seriously makes me a MRA then there is something seriously wrong with society.

This is where I exit this discussion due to sheer incomprehension that the above can be misconstrued as a bad thing.

I think perhaps there’s too much focus on gender and perhaps it should be more about people making differing choices. Gender is just part of it; people have different personality types, strengths, aspirations. I’m wary when I see posts generalising about men (or woman) - it’s just too complex an issue to make meaningful generalisations about.

And yes of course you can point to statistics such as more women than men being SAHP, and more men than women in CEO positions - but that’s where you have to factor in all the years of social conditioning and other influences which contribute to those statistics. remember it wasn’t that long ago that some professions were barred to women full stop. And many more did not allow women to continue after marriage and children. These were social constructs... there was nothing that meant biologically that a woman couldn’t carry on practising their profession just because they’d had a baby!

I don’t believe I was born with any greater innate knowledge of how to care for a young child (or cook, clean or anything else domestic come to that) than my dh was. And equally, my ability to work and earn outside the home is was just as great as his.

Therefore although of course there are gender differences (and no one has denied that) they can be overstated to defend a particular standpoint

@BlaaBlaaBlaa
I respect your decision to walk away from the discussion however just to be clear:
If being an active advocate for womens equality and free choice and being vocal about men taking their responsibilities as fathers seriously makes me a MRA then there is something seriously wrong with society
Nobody suggested this and I have made it clear in my apology that this wasn't my intention. I merely intended to question your definition of "free choice" which has been a consistent topic of discussion in this thread and I believe a valid debate.

There are obvious sex differences central to this discussion, and gender role stereotyping generally within the sexes and societal expectations/limitations, that make choicesvery unequal. I think options is a far more appropriate term to use.

There are parallels in your rhetoric blaa, that doesn't make you an MRA necessarily, but its not necessarily helpful to women's causes either.

I think you have slightly twisted what you've said there to suit as, no, that statement about free choice, and women's rights getting attacked, etc, isn't what people are doing,.

What's an MRA

Men and women are not equal stall, but we're talking about having equal rights.

Perhaps when men stop assuming women can be used as a posh wank instead of lying about their intentions and deceiving, this might be a good start point for altering some of the underlying belief systems around misogyny, that have driven options made available to women, without 100% effective contraception that can't be interfered with.

When a woman has a child and the father doesn't do his share of parenting why do so many go on to have more children with that man?

Well, bravo Bumpity and Smother......not only will be I removing myself from this conversation permanently you've actually pushed me to delete my account.

I cannot bring myself to be a part of any community that has people who equate someone advocating equality as having parallels with MRA. Just because I'm of the opinion that men can be equally as good parents as women- not a unique opinion I might add.

I'm sorry that your personal experiences of men has led you to the opinion that all men are poor parents just waiting to screw over their wives and children. But it's not the reality for many, many families.

How on earth it's classed as disgusting to suggest equality and to point out that women have choices, not always equal or easy choices but choices all the same but it's a acceptable to refer to women as a 'posh wank'

Fucking disgusting.

This is not the place for me.

blaa I am sorry you are doing that. Your last post is still full of assumptions and inaccuracies, and now you are blaming us for your actions, pity party.
Noone said suggesting equality is disgusting, noone said that its wrong to advocate for women's rights, or that personal experiences are what has lead to these posts, you've said all those things .

..and, sorry, but I can't help but feed your back your own line, its your choice. Noone has made you do this and I very much hear the strength of advocating for women's rights and equality on this thread by most posters, so I don't understand your post.

Again, you have twisted words to suit your argument. Men treating women as a posh wank, is not telling women they are a posh wank, but that they are treated as such. Your attitude comes across as really childish

Blaa

I can't say as I blame you, if you happen to read this, I agree with exactly what you have said.
It's important to remember there are dedicated husbands and fathers out there, these should be the norm not the rare.

Having read back my last post, I can only conclude you are bing deliberately obtuse and blame shifting.

I am sorry the discussion got to the point of posters deleting their accounts. Difference of informed, well-argued opinion is what makes Mumsnet. If we all sat and nodded to each other, it won’t be half as interesting. I value difference of opinion and I find it helpful to look at the issue through other people’s eyes. People have different perspectives and it encourages critical thinking. In a way, it can be helpful when people disagree with you.

I don’t want to go looking for another DH, Choli. I have some life experience by now and I know there are no ideal husbands out there from observing my relatives’ and my friends’ families. Everybody, man or woman, has negative traits of some description. If I was looking for this perfect husband and father, I would in all likelihood have remained blissfully unattached forever. I am satisfied I haven’t done too badly 🙂

Noons is doubting there are dedicated and wonderl dfs out there Romany that's not what's under discussion, or being hotly debated atall.

@BlaaBlaaBlaa
If you can't stand robust discussion and people that disagree with you then maybe MN isn't the place for you. MN is not an echo chamber and your definition of what equality must look like is not universal. I understand that this is your field of research and you think that you know more about this area than most of the rest of us which may well be true but this absolutely does not mean that your ideological perspective is correct.

Just to be absolutely clear:

To reiterate nobody said that you were an MRA, the way you suggest that BFing is a free choice for women is something that some MRAs also think and they use (and abuse) this line of argument against women. Someone asking if you agreed with them isn't the same as someone saying that you do agree with them. I apologised for asking the question as could see that it could be deemed offensive however flouncing off because someone dared question how far your logic extended is hardly conducive to an open and reasoned debate.

I do not have a poor opinion of men and have loads of fantastic men in my life that I love and respect. Most men I know are brilliant fathers but and this is an important but, I happen to think that the biological differences between men and women mean that women are more likely to want to be the primary care givers to their DC and also be better primary care givers at a population level. That's what seperates us! The idea of "free choice" in this context is not the same as the way you have put forward the idea of "choice".

I am a proud radical feminist and will not stand for someone telling me that they are a better feminist than me or that they are better advocate for equality. My view of what a truly equal society will look like may differ from your's but believe it or not we are on the same side and both want a world where women are equal to men.

I think anyone who has the victim mindset will think like this. Man or woman.

He obviously thinks he's been hard done by. Victim.

Money is just a tool and resource resulting from time and energy. He's invested time and energy into work, she's invested time and energy into the kids and home.

He needs to grow up and stop being narrow minded

I do think there is a narrative in society that men "get screwed over" by divorce, that the woman gets the house and kids and the man is left with nothing.
My understanding however is that women fare worse than men financially after divorce and that in large part this is due to decisions around childcare and careers.
Society also does not disapprove of the behaviour of this man as much as it should- see for instance your partner nodding along as this horrible plan was being explained.
And then ultimately a man can abandon his family, pay a derisory amount towards the upkeep of his children and can even be considered "a good dad" if he sees his kids once a fortnight. Imagine the position reversed as to how the woman would be viewed?
Someone WAY upthread mentioned a man stealing a woman's life when he abandons the kids to the woman's sole care. This is what happened to me. I am fortunate in that I have a career but my life is literally work and childcare with no headspace and it's taking a real toll on my health.
So in all I think my conclusion is that some men admit that they think this way; many more secretly think it and society does not heap opprobrium on them for thinking and acting this way (patriarchy innit?).

(For those who are smug about their choices, I married a man who'd had a working mother, was independent and did his fair share for 12 years until DD came along and he decided that even though we both worked full time he didn't have to do any of the shit work - I don't know how much longer of a trial you would have given it).